Then why are you selling them?
One thing you should always be leery of is any legal advice you get from a gun store.
20 Responses to “Then why are you selling them?”
Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.
Uncle Pays the Bills
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July 20th, 2010 at 9:58 am
In Texas, no less. College Station, even, which would seem to indicate some level of knowledge.
Not in that store, anyway…
tweaker
July 20th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Do you think that they are transposing Title II law into Title I? Or, someone saw a disclaimer for states like NY or CA?
While in looking around at a gun store in the hill country, with a baja shirt covering my pistols, I once had a Texas gun shop clerk tell me that “conceal and carry” was illegal under Tejas law and I could only open carry in the Great Republic of Tejas.
I started to argue, and then simply said “I’ll make sure I do that”. When I Texan tells you what “the law” is, it is best just to nod.
July 20th, 2010 at 10:21 am
Like the local range here (In NC) tells people that Open Carry is illegal (it’s not). But then, they make money doing CC courses so…
July 20th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Goes way beyond legal advice.
I had a gun shop operator show off his trick new concealed carry pistol: a derringer with .410 buckshot loaded. I acted impressed and asked him what the muzzle velocity of a .410 derringer was. “The box says 1200 eff-pee-ess!” Yes, indeed.
So I waddled down the counter and waited on my background check with reality a-swirl, and overheard him tell another customer that the best home defense load for a 12 gauge is #7 birdshot.
July 20th, 2010 at 11:32 am
Oh, I heard the birdshot bullshit too!
I’ve also heard that Gun X is “Safer” than Gun Y because it has a superfluous manual safety. (Spesifically a Beretta 92 vs. a Sig 226)
July 20th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Uncle, if you had a post on gun store nonsense (from both sides of the counter), you would have thousands of comments!
July 20th, 2010 at 11:39 am
i agree. but my experience is 100% from one side of the counter.
July 20th, 2010 at 11:45 am
I saw that somewhere yesterday. According to IR, ATF told them that it was illegal to assemble a weapon from an AR-15 lower, and the store would be fined ten grand for selling a lower to so assemble.
So the store put up a sign in self defense. Which makes sense.
Now – considering some of the cases I have in my files, that statement is not only credible, it is typical of ATF agents making up the rules as they go. The best thing to do is to inquire of ATF HQ. AND GET IT IN WRITING. And if this is the BS we all think it is, post it in plain sight of any wandering ATF agent.
Because since Kenyon Ballew was shot down “rogue agent” is a general description of a BATMan.
Stranger
July 20th, 2010 at 11:56 am
They got some funny ideas down in College Station. Here is some regarding hurricane prep.
July 20th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Frankly, it isn’t the dumbest thing I’ve heard from a gun shop commando behind the counter.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
Actually I have gotten excellent gone store advice. Just not from those morons. I had some questions concerning buying a handgun that were unique to a certain situation. The gun store owner called the batf and asked them if my idea was legal. And I found thatt it was. Very helpful.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
the best home defense load for a 12 gauge is #7 birdshot.
I don’t know about “best”, but at room range #7 birdshot will not spread or lose velocity appreciably and will make a pretty one inch or so hole with a few dots around it. It will go through an interior wall but just one and won’t have much energy left after that. So ….
July 20th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
In all fairness, there is a way to turn birdshot into a defensive weapon. Take the box of birdshot and write in fat magic marker: “.729 Caliber, Pre-Fragmented, Anti-Throat Shells”. Then below that write “Apply Directly to Throat.”
Otherwise, it’s just a way to get killed by a guy that’s bleeding on you.
July 20th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
It’s a testament to how ridiculous our Federal firearms regulations are that, according to the ATF, assembling a lower and upper (of an AR-15) and other parts into a functional rifle – regularly and for resale – is “manufacturing firearms” requiring a type 7 FFL – despite the lower receiver being the only part that’s considered a “firearm” under the National Firearms Act, and that the business in question did not manufacture the lower.
Seriously, what can they even really pretend that that’s “regulating”? Was there a glut of “firearms assembly” that needed to be controlled?
July 20th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
If you read through the thread, on about page 4, the owner of the gun shop in which the picture was taken explains:
My name is Mike Stulce & I have been the owner of Champion Firearms since founding the store back in 1993…, my store was visited by a BATF agent 2- weeks after the election. Although I was not there for the conversation, both my wife & general manager (BadSVT) were present.
The female ATF agent stated, “if we find out that you are knowingly selling lowers for the purpose of manufacturing a firearm, we will shut your store down….Lowers are sold as “replacement parts ONLY!”…
…Pursuant to this ultimatum and after speaking to my attorney about it, I posted the signs and began to have customers sign a waiver acknowledging that Champion Firearms is selling the receiver as a replacement only, or to be taken to a licensed mfg…
In conclusion, this is what I do for a living and how I feed my family…I would genuinely be an “idiot/ dumb ass, etc. ” if I didn’t take such precautions to maintain my license and livelihood.
So it sounds like less a case of dumb gun store personnel than it does dumb ATF agents. And we all know how willing to admit it they are when they make stupid mistakes.
July 20th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Sigivald is close. If the shop were to assemble a lower into a complete rifle, and then sell it, they’d have to be a 07 FFL. With all the expenses and headaches that go along with that. NFA has nothing to do with it.
It’s more a reminder to employees than it is a direction to customers.
The other sign, about replacements for pre-existing rifles, would seem to be a garbled take on use of imported parts (including receivers) on firearms considered non-importable under 922(r). It’s less defensible, though still, in an obscure and virtually irrelevant way, accurate.
July 20th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
What a crock of ATFunkery – parts is parts. How else do we build AR’s in CA? Off-list lowers.
July 20th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
That reminds me of a recent issue I had. I bought an upper, it came with an M-16 BCG. Anyone who knows the laws knows that is perfectly legal unless you have an m16 FCG in the gun as well. The staking… There wasn’t any so I took it in. A quick 2 minute thing. The smith said what I had was illegal and when its in a gun automatically makes it a machine gun. For a smith he was an idiot. How the hell then can I buy them online then? Tried to actually seize it from me. Not getting my buisness again.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:49 am
There doesn’t seem much point to debating it on arfcom, but if the store owner won’t defend himself from ATF, why should I bother? The agent is wrong and he’s wrong to not press his rights. This is doing the ATF’s job for them in that we’re not going to buy from this guy now they he’s shown his throat.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:43 am
McThag:
I see your point, but I also see Mr. Stulce’s.
What would you do to protect your family? How well would Mr. Stulce be protecting his family if he refused to do something this simple and loses his livelihood as a result?
It’s easy for us who aren’t directly involved to tell him what he should do, but when it’s your business, your livelihood, your life and your family on the line, would you be willing to throw everything away on the chance that the ATF and the courts would look at your case fairly?
The ATF will demonstrably lie, cheat, falsify evidence, perjure themselves, and basically do ANYTHING to get a conviction, without repercussion. Are you willing to spend years in prison, pay thousands in fines and hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in legal costs, destitute your family, become a felon unable to so much as touch a gun again in your life, etc…just to become ANOTHER cautionary tale about the evils of the ATF that are resoundingly ignored by the general public?
Yes, I’d love to see every gun owner rise up in concert to denounce the ATF and get them either brought under control, or disbanded outright…but until there’s any indication of that happening, I’m sure not going to fault one guy just trying to make a living and feed his family for declining to martyr himself for a cause that apparently few people take very seriously to begin with.