Jose Guerena’s gun
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June 8th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
On safe and unfired… The lies continue!
June 8th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
And dripping with patriot blood.
I am not a man for oaths, but I have one mind. It concerns the final disposition of my rifle’s safety.
June 8th, 2011 at 9:09 pm
What I would not pay to have those cops go to a Marine bar….
June 8th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Fuck a bunch of that.
June 8th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
That made me ill.
Anything I might say beyond that will get me arrested. Red curtain of blood doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface here.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:07 am
Dupshit and everyone on that raid need to convicted of murder.
June 9th, 2011 at 8:22 am
Rope.
Seriously, this has gotten completely out of hand.
June 9th, 2011 at 9:20 am
Why is the grip ring compressed?
June 9th, 2011 at 9:34 am
As I have said before, and posted publicly on the blog, the officers involved ought to be tried for murder, and accessories after the fact. And when they are convicted on the facts and the law, they should be hung by the neck until dead.
But of course, we all know that that isn’t going to happen.
June 9th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Utterly speachless
June 9th, 2011 at 10:15 am
This and the Fed -Ed raid are examples of a complete failure of intelligence gathering. Look At the Waco, Ruby Ridge, Philly MOVE raid and in each case the basic assumptions of the G-2 are completely wrong!
No verification, no double checking, no real information on the target of any value. The briefing will contain BS terms like gun nut, military trained, threats against law enforcement and no one questions what that means in the context of the warrant.
What a waste of a good mans life.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Funny how everyone thinks this guy was innocent just because he was a Marine. News flash, prior military and even active duty personnel can be bad guys too. Oh, and officers don’t need to wait for someone to shoot at them to open fire. If you point a firearm at an LEO, chances are you will be shot.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:32 am
Innocent of what?
June 9th, 2011 at 10:47 am
If he can get around any Copyright restrictions, and since these are Crime Scene Photos which should be Public Domain, I think Oleg Volk needs to make a Poster, and send the proceeds to Jose’s Widow. I’m sure he can make the appropriate Comments. Meanwhile, let me Download these pics before they “Mysteriously Disappear”.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:49 am
For normal officers you are correct. SWAT teams in a dynamic entry are supposed to work under slightly different rules. See Confederate Yankee’s analysis of the video from that raid for some good information from the perspective of someone with extensive SWAT and entry team training. The relevant portion:
It’s also important to note that we have only the word of the officers involved that he actually pointed the rifle at them. Considering the PCSO’s history of retractions and lies in this case, and the deliberate smear attempts they’ve tried against Guerena, there is absolutely no reason to trust their claims that he was pointing the rifle at them without independently verifiable evidence.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:57 am
Adam,
No we think he’s innocent because the agency that gunned him down has yet to offer the first shred of evidence that he was guilty of anything.
June 9th, 2011 at 11:16 am
Good one Tam… Nailed that bitch..
June 9th, 2011 at 11:58 am
I’m standing with Mas Ayoob and a few others in that I’m giving the police officers the benefit of the doubt until the investigation has been completed and ALL of the information has been released.
Dupnik is a POS, but that doesn’t automatically flow down to the officers working under him, and Guerena doesn’t get a pass just because he was a Marine once or because he had an AR-15. In the overwhelming majority of police raids, they do actually get the right address and the right guy. Until it’s proven that they were wrong this time, I’ll withhold judgement either way.
June 9th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Murphy’s Law,
I’m trying to, but the PCSD contradicting itself every five minutes is making it really, really hard.
If they could keep their story straight on just what he was accused of for 72 hours in a row, it wouldn’t smell so much like a coverup.
June 9th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
[Q]Funny how everyone thinks this guy was innocent just because he was a Marine. News flash, prior military and even active duty personnel can be bad guys too. Oh, and officers don’t need to wait for someone to shoot at them to open fire. If you point a firearm at an LEO, chances are you will be shot.[/Q]
No, asshole: We consider him innocent because he wasn’t convicted by a jury after a trial by his peers….Plus what Tam said…
OTOH, we can convict you of stupidity (which should be a Capital Crime) based on your displayed ignorance.
June 9th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Seriously? People are going to give “the benefit of the doubt” to an investigative body that’s INVESTIGATING ITS OWN?
Newsflash: They will be found innocent of ANY wrong doing. I guaran-damn-tee it.
Don’t think so? See: http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html AND:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/12/ap-marine-city-family-settle-in-shooting-death-121010/
All you “copsuckers” (reference for the term: http://zerogov.com/?p=1897 ) out there need to understand one thing:
If police break into your home and try to UNLAWFULLY arrest you (i.e., you’re innocent of any criminal wrong doing) you have the RIGHT to resist them with like force. Well, everyone except subjects living in Indiana: http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_ec169697-a19e-525f-a532-81b3df229697.html
Mr. Guerena was the subject of an ILLEGAL warrant….as he was not specifically named in said warrant and neither was his wife. Also, his address was not specifically listed in the warrant; another thing that violates the 4th Amendment.
The 4th Amendment states: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Get your heads out of your a$$es people. The government of this country at the federal, state and local level are just “hauling off and killing us”.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Wow, Sean, thanks.
We all here just got our internet connections today and had no idea of all that. Thank you for lifting the scales from our sheeple eyes.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
LOL @John Smith. Angry much? Guys like you are always the first ones act out and the first ones to find themselves neck deep in shit.
@Jake I appreciate the posting and “cliff notes” from Confederate Yankee’s analysis and to and I agree with much of what he has to say. We should always expect SWAT operators to have the highest level of discipline and training, unfortunately that’s not always the case. To compare a SWAT officer to an a Navy SEAL in DEVGRU however, is unrealistic. Not all SWAT teams are created equal first of all, and not all SWAT teams have the resources they should have, to train as much as they would like to.
My point being that even though the SWAT officers are/were expected to take more time to assess the situation, when a potential threat displays a firearm the SWAT officer may react with lethal force. And anyone who has never been in combat or in a similar situation to say they would have done it differently, how would you know?
If it was a bad shoot and trumped up charges, then yes, by all means the agency and officers need to be held accountable. Somehow though, I think that people don’t want this to be a valid shoot. They want the cops to the be the bad, big brother, blood thirsty killers.
Whatever the case, I want what most everyone else wants, the TRUTH.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Tam,
I was in complete agreement with you….I wrote all that for the people who may not be up to speed and for the ones defending the cops actions.
It’s a pity you don’t even realize who’s on your side.
Sean
June 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
@ Flight-ER-Doc, another hothead. Seems to be a trend. Hope you aren’t a Flight ER Doc for real.
Sooo, IF Guerena was indeed bringing his firearm up to engage the SWAT officers, should they have allowed him to shoot several officers before returning fire? How many officers need to die in order to take him alive to be judged, “by a jury after a trial by his peers?”
It’s really your ignorance that’s showing here. But hey, I’m guessing I shouldn’t expect much…Doc.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
I’ll go with Occam’s razor.
We have a warrant that doesn’t list any of the house residents; we have both house residents that have no prior criminal records and we have one resident being an honorably discharged veteran, again with no known charges during his military service; we have no illegal drugs or weapons found in the residence; and finally we have police officers stopping medical treatment for no valid reason. I’ll leave aside the opinion from prior police officers the level of professionalism shown in the video tape.
I’m all for benefit of the doubt for police officers…but given the known facts – it’s really hard…
I’ll also suggest there would likely be less people calling for tar, feathers and rope if there was any likely hood that anyone involved will face any sort of repercussions.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:35 pm
If they don’t have the resources to train their team to a minimum standard of professionalism – and it’s obvious from the video that they aren’t trained to that minimum standard – then they shouldn’t have a team, period. They can call in the State Police SWAT team if they need to do this kind of entry.
That’s one reason they’re supposed to stay behind the guy with the big shield – so they can have that extra second to assess.
Like Tam, I’d be more willing to believe the cops if it weren’t for their constantly changing story, and the fact that they withheld medical care for over an hour. The Chinese fire-drill nature of the raid shown in the video and the released audio – before, during, and after the actual shooting – strongly contributes to the idea that they simply panicked and are trying to cover it up, and their pathetic attempts to smear Guerena by painting his possession of items anyone with half a brain would expect a marine to have plants the cops firmly into the ‘untrustworthy without third-party verification’ category in this case.
The fact that there was apparently no legitimate reason for this type of raid in the first place just makes things worse for the cops.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
Adam,
“Somehow though, I think that people don’t want this to be a valid shoot.”
It has nothing to do with “want”.
Jose Guerena is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Whatever the (as yet unrevealed) crime of which he was suspected, the evidence was so slim that they didn’t even have enough to issue an arrest warrant for him.
And now, with him dead in the ground, all we get from PCSD is a stream of ever-changing accusations and obfuscations. What are we expected to think?
June 9th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
I, for one, would like to give those officers involved an all-expense paid vacation to San Clemente, CA. Tour guides are waiting now.
June 9th, 2011 at 5:55 pm
Jose Guerena is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Whatever the (as yet unrevealed) crime of which he was suspected, the evidence was so slim that they didn’t even have enough to issue an arrest warrant for him.
And now, with him dead in the ground, all we get from PCSD is a stream of ever-changing accusations and obfuscations. What are we expected to think?
Which is exactly my problem as well. The issue here isn’t one about the benefit of the doubt, but of competency which from the video evidence looks like a Three Stooges attempt at a breach. When one side keeps changing its story, chances are they are the guilty party. Also for the record, this guy had NO criminal record (as far as I know), was in lawful possession of a firearm, and no contraband was found on the premises. What would you think if it happened to you or a family member?
June 9th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
//My point being that even though the SWAT officers are/were expected to take more time to assess the situation, when a potential threat displays a firearm the SWAT officer may react with lethal force. And anyone who has never been in combat or in a similar situation to say they would have done it differently, how would you know?//
Their warrant was invalid for the premises and for the individuals therein. They had no more right to be there than any other home invasion gang. They weren’t acting as cops they were acting as criminals. As such they had no right to defend themselves against a law abiding citizen in his own home.
June 9th, 2011 at 9:08 pm
It’s good that people who would not have perhaps in the past taken notice of this are doing it now. Not to hurl around charges of racism, and certainly not to tar anyone who’s previously posted here of such motivations, but I will say that there a large portion of people who were ok with SWAT drug raids so long as they were directed against black people accused of doing drugs, or other such types. Now that a Marine is dead, people are angry, and they should be, but this has been going on for years now. Jose Guerena was not the first and the terrible truth is that he will not be the last. I urge anyone reading this who has not already done so to educate yourself about the ongoing encroachment of police power into our liberties. Especially useful is the work of Radley Balko, who is one of the few men today I can call a reporter without sneering.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:20 pm
Britt,
“Not to hurl around charges of racism, and certainly not to tar anyone who’s previously posted here of such motivations, but I will say that there a large portion of people who were ok with SWAT drug raids so long as they were directed against black people accused of doing drugs, or other such types.”
Fuck you. Die in a fire.
June 9th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
As someone who seems to be turning into a bit of a White Nationalist, I concur with Our Tam’s last two sentences at #33. I am not OK with that kind of raid against _anybody_, whatever his patrimony.
June 10th, 2011 at 12:33 am
Tam,
“Fuck you. Die in a fire.”
Beyond funny!
-Jon
June 10th, 2011 at 2:07 am
Well good thing we can discuss things like mature adults. Or do you honestly think that no one supports SWAT drug raids due to racist motivations. Or if not racist motivations, then something so close as to be indistinguishable. I mean, I’m not saying that’s a primary motivation for any but a tiny minority, but I do think a lot of people would be a lot more outraged if the War on Drugs was being fought in the suburbs instead of the ghettos. Not to mention all the politicians who go on to heights of power and influence despite their drug use continuing the persecution of people for indulging in consensual trade or ingesting a controlled substance. I bet a search would turn up about the same amount of drugs in Broad Ripple as in the big bad ghetto. Hell, the retirement home up the road kicked a guy out for dealing the ganja from his wheelchair. It’s everywhere, but middle class white people aren’t the ones who get their doors kicked down and their asses hauled off to jail.
Ever hear of Corey Maye? Where was the outrage when he was convicted of capital murder because he shot a police officer who was kicking his door down in the middle of the night. Think about that. You are asleep on the couch in front of the TV. You hear someone breaking down your front door, you run into your bedroom, where your girlfriend and infant daughter are sleeping, and you load your pistol. You close the bedroom door and lie on the floor, hoping they’ll take the TV and go. But they don’t. The bedroom door flies open, and you open fire. As the intruder drops to the ground you hear “POLICE! DROP YOUR WEAPON!” and you comply. But it’s too late. You just killed a cop, and you’re a black guy with a bong on the coffee table and it’s Mississippi and things have changed but not that much.
So if you’re white and an Uncle reader substitute overzealous statist prosecutor with a stack of memos from DHS and a bunch of press releases from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Watch your Internet history, bookmarks, and blogroll be trotted out as proof that you are a dangerous anti government extremist, a powder keg waiting to go off.
Right, I’m off to go build that fire to die in.
June 10th, 2011 at 2:50 am
Britt, I have some excellent strike-anywhere matches here, if you’d like some. Sorry, you’ll have to provide yer own gasoline.
June 10th, 2011 at 2:52 am
Britt seems to be some kind of anti-white guy pretending to be a libertarian.
June 10th, 2011 at 8:51 am
Brit-
WTF.. where on this blog has race been brought up as a pejorative… you are a lunatic… and dryer lint works as great constable. Clearly you are hung up on race.
June 10th, 2011 at 8:51 am
*combustable
June 10th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Britt,
Go up to the top left of the blog and find the search bar. Plug in “Cory Maye” (be sure to spell it correctly).
Plenty of outrage to go around.
June 10th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
As a long-time reader around these parts, most of the animosity towards the operators clowns who partook of the Jose Guevara raid is coming from people who directed similar animosity towards the bunglers who went into the wrong door at Cory Maye’s place, or the convicted criminals who were wearing badges the day they shot Kathryn Johnson, or any number of similar instances.
June 10th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
Jon says: “Beyond funny!”
I doubt Tam was making a joke here. There is enough grief and outrage here to make it clear that this is a bad place to be dancing in victim blood for one’s personal bee-bonnet.
June 11th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Not to hurl around charges of racism, and certainly not to tar anyone who’s previously posted here of such motivations,
And then you go ahead and do exactly that. I’m with Tam here, only not as polite. Shove your racism accusations sideways, then go die in a fire.