Is the scout rifle still relevant?
Discussion. I’ve never seen a use for one.
19 Responses to “Is the scout rifle still relevant?”
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November 4th, 2014 at 7:16 pm
Its one of those things where I believe Jeff Cooper really didn’t catch up to modern firearms technology nor tactics. I believe that his concept really met by a 6.8 SPC 18 inch bbl Designated Marksman style AR carbine.
November 4th, 2014 at 7:24 pm
“I’ve never seen a use for one.”
It gave Jeff Cooper something to write about when he had writer’s block.
November 4th, 2014 at 8:04 pm
No use for a handy .308 bolt action? Huh.
November 4th, 2014 at 8:11 pm
.308 bolty with a mid to long range scope, sure. .308 semi with low range, sure. .308 bolty with low range, not so much.
November 4th, 2014 at 8:57 pm
It feels a lot like arguing for a Single Action 45 Colt. Yeah, I REALLY like them, but I just can’t find a way to justify carrying it for defense, or even hunting really.
I don’t know what a 45 Long Colt with 6 shots can do that a Glock 20 can’t. Well, except you can fan it.
November 4th, 2014 at 9:32 pm
You can’t put fancy grips on a Glock 20. You can do trickshot spinning with a Glock 20. If those arguements don’t sway you….racism!
November 4th, 2014 at 9:41 pm
I think a Scar 17 with a 1-6x scope is the modern equivalent.
November 5th, 2014 at 2:11 am
Try hitting unk distance targets, some moving, while coving miles of terrain, in environs with much cover and concealment. I would argue an AR10 is pretty good, but at the cost of 50% more weight in your arms. I know its hard to understand sitting behind the keyboard…
November 5th, 2014 at 5:07 am
Sounds like a Glorified SWAT rifle to me. A rifle that fires .308 and is rarely used beyond 100 yards. Not much of a non police use for that unless you have gorilla sized squirrel infestation.
November 5th, 2014 at 10:23 am
The reason for the .308 caliber was to have a universally available ammunition supply, and re-supply, no matter where in the world you found yourself.
The reason for the length and weight limits was to make having the rifle with you more likely, the same reasoning for pocket rocket 9mm subcompacts. The Scout in the car trunk was more useful than a Sako in the safe at home.
The reason for the fixed sight scope and ghost ring backups was reliability, reliability, reliability.
The Scout wasn’t meant to do any one thing superbly. The Scout was meant to allow a rifle shooter to do anything necessary with a rifle, with this one rifle that was always available, always had ammo, and always worked.
I like my Leatherman tool, my Swiss Army knife, my Chevy pickup truck, my Glock 19 for the same reasons.
I’d still like to have a nice Sako, though.
November 5th, 2014 at 2:11 pm
Most shooters never get out of the shooting range,and so they’ll never understand a rifle that’s meant for actual use as opposed to practice from a bench.
One of the first reality checks a new hunter will have is that his scope magnification way too high. It worked brilliantly at the range, but fucked him up in the field.
Another reality check is that, unless he’s stand hunting, he’ll end up wanting the lightest weight rifle he can get that’s still practical for the job.
Once he’s hunted for several seasons, the new hunter will then realize that actual, useful, quick follow-up shots are rare, and probably not even an issue in North America in the vast majority of cases. For myself, I’ve taken exactly two follow-up shots, and in both cases there was more than ample time to reload a muzzle loading rifle with loose powder, patched ball and percussion cap, and so a bolt action or semi auto would have been about a hundred to a thousand times faster than required.
Once you’ve tried a 1x dot sight at 400 yards (I mean really tried it) and hunted with iron sights for a bit, you’ll begin to think a light, simple, low profile, fixed power 2.5x scope is pretty damned useful and practical, and that heavy, bulky, complicated 20x zoom scope with its spreadsheet reticle will get left behind more and more and more, until you’ve forgotten about it.
November 5th, 2014 at 3:14 pm
For Cooper, the “general purpose” rifle has to do the following:
* Quickly kill any animal, big or small, for food or self-defense
* Light enough to carry while navigating the wilderness for indefinite periods
* Serve as adequate defense against human attackers in a pinch
For these purposes, considering the hardware available in the 80s, Cooper’s scout would be a fantastic tool.
It’s relevant for what Cooper specified it for*, above, and was never relevant for much else. “General purpose” means it’s inherently not the ideal rifle for specialized tasks**.
(* Which is, as the article fairly points out, somewhat dated – modern low-variable scopes are probably superior to a 1980-vintage fixed power.
I’m no hunter, but my impression is that Lyle is right about hunting.
And mikee is right about ammo, with the addition of, as Cooper put it IIRC, “.308 is sufficient for anything that walks in North America”.
** Which is why a station wagon isn’t a 911 nor an F-350, but is a better general purpose vehicle than either.)
November 5th, 2014 at 3:22 pm
I keep a Mosin-Nagant M-38 with a plastic stock and a scout scope as my trunk gun.
It’s better than a pistol, and it’s always there.
November 5th, 2014 at 3:22 pm
And it’s cheap enough to replace, if required.
November 5th, 2014 at 4:11 pm
I think the “scout rifle” is one that can be designated as a “trunk gun” or one to be carried in one’s vehicle.
November 5th, 2014 at 5:35 pm
Cooper was very, very clear as to what a Scout rifle is and what it isn’t, and he wrote about this right up to 2004. Since he made up the term, the term is his and should be respected as such. Most of what’s talked about as a “Scout rifle”, he would call a “pseudo scout”.
For African hunting, he had what he called a “Dragoon” or a “Dragoon Scout” which was a Styer Scout in a heavier caliber. He described the Dragoon as the rifle that the Professional Hunters would see for the first time and say “What the hell is that?!” and after seeing it use throughout one safari, would ask, “Where do I get one?”
It is true that the “Scout scope” probably should have provisions for a sun shade at both ends, but then all of my deer have been taken either just after sunset, or in mid morning when the sun is high.
Also; Cooper was very clear on the point that a Scout rifle need not have a telescope on it at all, necessarily, to qualify as a Scout rifle.
So, although we sell several optic mounts as “scout scope mounts” we mean a mount that facilitates the attachment of a scout scope, as opposed to a scope mount for a Scout rifle. There is a distinction.
Now that Springfield sells an M1A “Scout” model (and Cooper commented on this rifle favorably, though he did not consider it a true Scout rifle) things have become somewhat confused.
Almost without exception, people I’ve talked with who consider themselves shooters, have balked at the idea of shooting well past 100 yards without magnification. This is proof positive that they’ve never tried it, at least not with a serious attitude. I usually use the example of High Power competitions, which start at 200 yards, standing, unsupported, with no magnification. The prone position is reserved for the 1,000 yard line, still with no magnification.
There is a world of difference between carrying everything you need on your person, on foot, ready to shoot within three or four seconds of identifying a target, and shooting at fixed targets at measured distances from a bench at your local 100 or 200 yard range with a buffet table of tools, ammo and accessories. The latter is for the purpose of load development and fisking out the performance of your equipment. The other is the real world which said fisking, along with much field practice using improvised positions on targets of opportunity at non-standard, unmeasured distances, was done to facilitate.
November 5th, 2014 at 5:36 pm
What Lyle said. That’s what I have found but I bet he has a LOT more experience than me. Also… my eyesight isn’t what it used to be through the irons. The 2.5x gets me back to youthful peepers and then some.
November 5th, 2014 at 6:25 pm
Yes, what Lyle said.
November 6th, 2014 at 6:31 pm
Cooper’s primary idea behind the scout was to develop ONE RIFLE that would serve 90% of the needs of a rifleman for life. The goal of the scout development was to make available the tools to facilitate a culture change. The outcome of the widespread acceptance of the scout would be hunters and outdoorsmen that had good equipment they were familiar with and knew how to use, therefore increasing the number of competent riflemen. He thought that most shooters were spoiled for choice, and he saw the vast number of incompetent shooters coming through Gunsite that were hung up on selecting the right equipment rather than building their skill with adequate equipment.
Cooper didn’t like variable power optics because, time and again while instructing thousands of students, he saw them fail, and he saw that variables were almost always on the wrong power when needed in a hurry, and therefore were more trouble than they were worth. Hence the low power fixed optics.
Those of us that have embraced the concept are very satisfied with our scouts, therefore don’t have to have a safe full of different rifles. Conversations that never take place at my house: Honey, I’m going coyote hunting, where’s my .22-250? I’m going deer hunting on horseback, where’s my .30-30? I’m going elk hunting in New Mexico, where’s my .338? I’m going pig hunting in the panhandle, what should I bring? There’s a deer that got hit out by the highway, and it’s thrashing and crying, what should I shoot it with? My brother invited me to go hunt Caribou with him, what’s a good rifle for Caribou? We’re going on a 4 state trip to visit family, and I want to bring more than my handgun, what would be a good long gun to bring? We want to go for a hike and go down to the river to fish, but the ranch that has the lease has cows and bulls grazing, what can we bring in case there’s trouble? We’re going camping in the National forest, what long gun should we bring? Two of the bison off that small ranchette down the road got loose, and they killed the neighbor’s dog and have the neighbor trapped in her house, what should we do?
I’ve had each of those situations come up in the last 10 years, and the answer to all of them has been my Steyr Scout.
FormerFlyer