What caliber for angry mob?
The teens had to run through a door so I’m guessing a 18 round M&P or Glock would have dissuaded the high schoolers:
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April 14th, 2015 at 7:10 pm
Students from a “Prep Academy”? Prep for what? Prison or the morgue?
April 14th, 2015 at 7:11 pm
Well, whatever caliber it requires, obviously he would have only needed a few rounds, probably not more than 5 or 7 or some other arbitrarily picked low number, because the mob of youth was hardly that large. He should have run away, or puked on himself, or given them whatever it was they wanted, or blew a rape whistle. Then it all would have ended peacefully and no one would get hurt.
sarcasm
April 14th, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Lotta diversity going on there.
April 14th, 2015 at 7:27 pm
I bet he peed himself – very effective in stopping gang rapes too.
April 14th, 2015 at 7:51 pm
Looks like a good time for a 12ga.
April 14th, 2015 at 9:35 pm
Yep, 12ga, and rock and roll…
April 14th, 2015 at 10:05 pm
“Rowdy teenagers”??
April 15th, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hell, I figure as soon as you torched off the first round the mob would disperse. Highschool kids are generally cowards. They aren’t going to face down a guy with a gun. They only mobbed him because they figured he was easy pickings.
April 15th, 2015 at 2:09 am
They’re prepped as zombies. Foot soldiers, cannon fodder for the coming storm. This is just a precursor. They’re hopped up and ready to go. The professors have done their job on this bunch, so far as they can under the circumstances. What these kids lack is the willingness to die for their cause. One old granny with a 380 could stop a mob of that kind, and right quick.
What caliber? Whatever ya got, I reckon. My biggest concern would be over-penetration and stray bullets. Lots of innocents around the place. A SMG would be appropriate except for that. 12 gauge bird shot would be plenty effective close up, and limited in deadly effect at distance, but still it can put an eye out. But then who packs a twelve gauge around as a PDW? Maybe in the vehicle, but that takes time to reach it. Stuff like that erupts in a second, fetching your truck gun takes a lot longer, and that’s only after you’ve got around to deciding you need it. Probably running in and using your hands (and voice) would be the ticket in that exact instance– bust a couple of heads and the rest start to pay attention. Trouble is you just never know.
April 15th, 2015 at 2:36 am
what caliber ? 300 BLACKOUT
Seriously, there needed to be AT LEAST 10 dead teens right there. Nothing is a teaching moment like dead friends.
April 15th, 2015 at 3:10 am
“But then who packs a twelve gauge around as a PDW? Maybe in the vehicle, but that takes time to reach it.”
A Deputy Sheriff once told me; “a handgun is what you use until you get to your rifle or shotgun”.
April 15th, 2015 at 9:10 am
Tell me that’s not racism.
Dude said he had a gun and “almost” took it out.
You or your baby wouldn’t be “almost” dead or seriously injured if those little thugs had gotten to you…that’s why you have the gun, take it out and destroy the first face that comes in the window.
“Justifiable dead kid” he said. You bet. It’s the only thing that will stop this shit.
April 15th, 2015 at 9:37 am
Grapeshot from a 3-inch Ordnance Rifle.
April 15th, 2015 at 9:39 am
Although, .45ACP JHP from my Springfield XD would prove much more portable.
April 15th, 2015 at 10:03 am
No – he was not justified in shooting anyone. He handled the situation correctly. If he had shot, I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt. Bearing arms is not a damned game, where you draw the lucky pretext-to-shoot card.
Get it through your skull – society would rather see you kill a murderer rather than be murdered, but society would rather you get beaten than shoot a bully. The standard is grave bodily harm. It is an unfair standard, in that you can’t know until afterward whether a punch would have disabled you. Doesn’t matter that it is unfair – that’s the standard you will be judged on.
Imagine you unholster your gun and use it, and you get good, decent, honest and fairminded men for your arresting police, DA and judge. They have to decide whether society needs to be protected from you. Questions about your civil rights and your well-being are secondary.
If you happen to be a craven coward or a weakling, then of course you fear grave bodily harm in any scuffle – but society doesn’t care. Doesn’t care whether you were actually justified or legally justified. They care whether you are a threat to society or not. That’s the definition of what it means to be a sympathetic victim.
April 15th, 2015 at 10:34 am
Dear dead dog, I mean dustydog, the former is what you might end up being if faced with a similar situation and follow your own advice, but hey, “society” will admire you!
You are an idiot giving idiotic advice…a mob attack and a thug coming in your car window inches from your baby is a justifiable as lethal defense gets it; you and your methods might feel more at home in TPWGBUTB.
April 15th, 2015 at 11:33 am
JTC,
Guys who leap at an excuse to wish death upon people who disagree with their fantasy, are why politicians like Obama and Hillary get the plurality of undecided voters.
April 15th, 2015 at 1:25 pm
The big problem was shooting is overpenetration and knowing the backdrop of gas pumps. I would not like to set up an explosion or fire. Those kids were fast. A shot gun of 12 ga would have disperse many from the clerks door and not damaged the pumps.
April 15th, 2015 at 2:53 pm
dustydog, mindless embrace of the progressive agenda is of course the real reason behind the ascent of your elitist dear leaders and is your prerogative.
But attempting to denigrate the motives of those who defend their Constitutional right to self defense is not. In forty years as an FFL, pawnbroker, and dealer of precious metals, coins, and fine estate jewelry, all relatively high-risk in terms of potential targeting by the evil among us, I’ve never had to draw down on anyone, due largely to the deterrent effects of preparation, awareness, and interpersonal skills; thank God for that and hope that streak continues the rest of my life.
But I promise you that if I am viciously attacked by a mob of animals and/or my loved ones are put at risk of harm by them, as in this case? Some body or some bodies will be delivered to the morgue. That too would have a major deterrent effect with the potential save other innocent lives and maybe some more of the thugs that you and your leaders are so concerned with.
April 15th, 2015 at 2:57 pm
RAH:
Wrong on two counts.
Buckshot would be just as damaging to a pump station as a handgun slug. Neither would be likely to start a fire from possible damage. Unlikely to break any of the piping. Could rip a nozzle hose, but without the pump actually running, very little gas will hit the ground.
However, loading birdshot deliberately for self defense may be problematic, as it could be looked at as an attempt to create a less-than-lethal weapon. Non badge carriers are not allowed to employ such. You are required to use a gun in a lethal manner, or you can be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, since you obviously didn’t fear for your life. Shooting to wound is NEVER allowed. (in some cases, you could claim that you missed your real target, or are just a bad shot)
April 15th, 2015 at 4:40 pm
No – he was not justified in shooting anyone. He handled the situation correctly.
Because he was in the car and they couldn’t get in, yes, dustydog is right.
Once he achieved shelter in the car, he was no longer in danger of grave harm, and had no justification for shooting.
Now, if they’d managed to break a window or force open a door, the situation changes…
April 15th, 2015 at 8:34 pm
Heh. Hilarious to see the cocksure clinical commentary on someone else’s chaotic calamitous confrontation.
The standard for deadly self-defense is and has always been immediate and reasonable fear for the life of one’s self or others. With the more recent and hard-won right to consider one’s vehicle his sacrosanct Castle, legal justification is codified.
A crazed mob of wildlings assaulting you and attempting to force you from your domicile and endangering your baby and blocking your escape? Wait til the glass shatters in your child’s face or you are dragged out and beaten to death? Right, I’m sure you gentlemen would take the time to reach a reasoned and rational action before employing the tool that you carry and have trained with for just that situation. Get back to me when it’s happened to you rather than critiquing on your keyboard from your easy chair with the benefit of already knowing the non-deadly outcome.
Life or death is decided in an instant, and under these circumstances a thug being killed would not only be justifiable but *not* shooting and the outcome being the death of a good Samaritan or an innocent child would in this space be the subject of ridicule and incredulity for not using the means he carried for exactly this scenario to defend himself and his child.
This guy was fortunate and so were the hoodlums. But had he killed one he would be alive to regret taking a life but be proud and secure in the knowledge that he did what was necessary, legal, and moral in the most important job that a man has, to protect and provide for his family. And the evidence, the witnesses, the nebulous “society” that was mentioned, and God himself would support and forgive his split-second decision.
April 15th, 2015 at 11:30 pm
Breaking a side window with a fist, on the outside, is not likely. However, are you willing to bet that none of those idiots has a window breaker tool?
I’ve been told that it is not uncommon for cops to find kids carrying the spring loaded plunger type. They are compact, and easily fit in a pocket. Rescue workers carry them to break car windows when working crash scenes. Designed to shatter the glass without spraying chunks into the interior. Just pull the knob back and release it while holding the tube against the glass. I think it has a carbide tip to keep the point sharp.
April 16th, 2015 at 10:02 am
JTC wins the thread.
April 16th, 2015 at 11:27 am
I don’t often agree with JTC, but I think he is correct here.
From the moment the first punch was thrown until he reached the safety of his car and was pulling away, he was under attack.
Ability. Opportunity. Jeopardy. All are satisfied. They outnumbered him, they surrounded him, they physically attacked him with punches and kicks, they pursued even as he attempted to disengage and retreat. I don’t believe a reasonable person would have faulted him for drawing his gun and shooting when they had attacked him and before he got to his car. Once he was in his car, that may have been a different story, but thankfully he was able to get away and is not seriously harmed.
Surrounded by an angry, attacking mob, I would think fits the very definition of “fear for your life or grave bodily harm.”
April 16th, 2015 at 11:34 am
“Get back to me when it’s happened to you”
A fight where one or a few guys gets ganged up on and beaten down, and nobody gets too seriously hurt? That’s what we used to call Friday night.
April 16th, 2015 at 2:34 pm
I had been feeling a little bad about calling you an idiot after your statement that “your civil rights and your well-being are secondary” to the opinion of your “society” when defending from vicious mob attack.
So thank you for your statement of 11:34 wherein you removed all doubt that I was correct in my initial assessment.
April 17th, 2015 at 4:10 am
‘A fight where one or a few guys gets ganged up on and beaten down, and nobody gets too seriously hurt? That’s what we used to call Friday night.’
1) You used to gang up on innocent people and beat them up, seriously? wtf is wrong with you.
2) A severe beating is more likely to kill than a gunshot wound.
April 17th, 2015 at 8:55 pm
Massad Ayoub paraphrasing his book, commenting on the LA riots, that, as a cop, he would have floored it as soon as the first hand of any rioter was on their vehicle. Lay on the horn as a warning, and then go. It’s a 2000-lb guided bludgeon.
I don’t have my copy in front of me. I welcome any corrections.
April 18th, 2015 at 12:27 am
2000 lb.? What the hell do you drive, a Smart? More like a switch than a bludgeon. 🙂
April 18th, 2015 at 3:09 pm
oops. thanks. my bad. “Gross Combined Wt Rating 6,000 lbs. amazing what 1 wrong key hit will do …