Chai Vang Round Up
Kevin has a good piece on the VPC, England and more.
Reasonable Nut on the alleged Hmong racism that may have lead to the shooting. He notes that it is odd that among 20 hunters, there was only one gun reported. If true, it shoots a rather sizable hole in the claim that the dead folks shot first, if you ask me.
The Journal Sentinel doesn’t know much about guns or deer killing:
Some will immediately raise the issue of gun control. The SKS 7.62mm semiautomatic assault weapon, the kind of rifle Vang was carrying, is ill-suited for hunting deer. It is apparently too underpowered to kill a deer with a single shot, the goal of hunters who want to avoid needless suffering.
The 7.62 is adequate for deer hunting.
Former President Clinton, by executive order, barred SKS rifles manufactured in China and Russia. The Bush administration, according to a national gun control group, has specifically allowed their importation from some other countries.
Actually, that would Bush 1 and not Clinton.
Should they be banned by executive order altogether?
Actually, I’m still trying to figure out where executive order authorized the president to do anything, much less ban the importation of something. I thought Congress regulated commerce. Meanwhile, the VPC is calling on the president to ban all gun SKS imports.
Apparently, there have been other incidents in the past of Hmong hunting on private property without permission:
Hunters have complained the Hmong do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they want. The tension once led to a fistfight in Minnesota.
The Brady Camp and JoinTogether continue to dance in the blood of dead people. In the event that it turns out that Vang was actually attacked and defended himself (unlikely, since police are reporting he hunted down the other hunters), would that change the Brady statement?
Update: Shooting another hole in the self-defense angle:
Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun, the document states.
It’s not defense if you chase them down and shoot them in the back.
December 1st, 2004 at 2:38 am
i am not against white people at all, well i take it back but dana and those peeps in WI…i have many white friends …..but everyone obviously can see he was discriminated tht’s the whole point…..
December 1st, 2004 at 2:46 am
damn dana you such a R.N.I.W.T. you said you know them, that their good people. alot of people knows vang too and says he a good man. if he wasn’t a good man then why the F**K did he served for this damn F**Ken country? did those whites serve their country? so you have no right to say who is good and who is not, because in a way their all good people. everyone has a good and a bad side to them. so tell, who’s the good one? i bet it’s the white folks cause your white. like i say earlier this country is not a color-blind sociaty yet, mostly like that town. tell me, who is at fualt here, the one that was doing the self-defensing or the one that fire the first shot? i know it was wrong of him to fire at everyone but tell me R.N.I.W.T., come on tell me. to me, i think both partie are at fualt. ask yourself this. what would you have done if it was a group of hmong hunter shooting at you. what would you have done R.N.I.M.F.W.T.B.? kill or be killed? would you judge you action right then or would you judge it later? fire back and ask questions later? you would of just done the same thing. you claim not to be rasicm but you sound like one. you be telling digusted by white folks to learn how to spell and write clearly but your the one that needs to get the spell checker. it’s no wonder you think the way you do.
December 1st, 2004 at 2:55 am
amen to steven….shiet….. i’m sure if i typed “r” everyone ones that mean “are” cuz if u’r like dana u wounld’t…well steven that’s what happens with little white girls are spoiled rotten by their hunting red neck dad…they walk across this country as if they own every thing…i am grateful for everything i have…i don’t have anything against anyone but dana the cracker and those racists white people in Wi…..it’s a shame tht if this case is lost the racists people in WI will win again ……
December 1st, 2004 at 3:21 am
let’s just hope that the american justice system works. if not, you’ll be sure hells gonna break loose. why can’t R.N.I.W.T. just learn to accept minority and blacks. what’s so hard about that? you whites be telling hmongs to adopt your ways but you can’t even atleast try to learn their ways as will. people who can’t accept people of color shouldn’t call themself an american. ask yourself this, is there any people of color living in that small town beside those hecks? if there were, are they still living there?
December 1st, 2004 at 4:06 am
I just don’t understand why people can be helpful to other when you see someone lost in the wood or somewhere, all u have to do
is asked him nicely or help him get out. I would be scare too if 6 or 10 people surrounding u and called u all name and shoot at u
I would react the same way, unless of course there is more to it
December 1st, 2004 at 6:12 am
This message is going out to Dee of Rice Lake. My name is Bee and I also live in the Central Wisconsin Area. Yes, I am of Hmong descent and of all the news that is flying around, I just want to start by giving my condolences to the friends and families of the victims. What Chai Vang did is non-excusable and has served as a disgrace to the Hmong community.
I really felt a greater understanding after reading your column based on your perspective and I agree with some of your assessment. Just like you and the others around us, I am also trying to begin a new life here. You see, I am also from a very diversed community in California but living here in Wisconsin for the past ten years has given me reasons to assume that there are “racism” between certain groups, no matter what color of their skins are. I agree that we as human beings have good and bad people that are within our communities. I also believe that in order to bridge this gap within our communities, we need to come together in order to better understand one another.
I really don’t know what to say in order to temper the pain or anger of the friends and families of the victims who might be feeling right now; except that I am greatly sorry for their losses. I also know that my apologies won’t bring them back. Although I speak for myself and no one else, I hope that people will understand that a time of change is upon us and for the sake of argument, i just want everyone out there who is reading this to know that if we are to make a difference, then we need to act as a whole and not as seperate communities.
December 1st, 2004 at 7:08 am
Dana, I do not condone mr. Chai Vang action. However, some color folks (ie, native americans, east asian, southeast asian, south asian, black americans, hispanic, middle eastern you get the picture) can’t take it anymore and they snap!!! As a result, incidence like this happen. I wanted to say to white folks who are none racist to educate their fellow white folks who are to be more tolerable and respectful of people of other cultures and ehnicities . Also I wanted to tell white parents to teach their children to be more accepting and respectful of people of other culture and ethnicities. Otherwise, incidences like these will happen again (Folk like Kevin and Scott above might be the next victims) Danna, I wanted to tell you a stories. When I was in junior high on my way to the public library, I saw two lille kids possible between 6-8 years old. They saw me and imediately calling me derogarory names like ching!!!Chong!!!!gook!!!!. I say to myself these little kids are brave, because I can certainly can snap them in half, mine you I was at the time in the 9th grade. The point is kids that young need to be taught by their parents to be respectful of other peoples otherwise they grow up to be like (kevin and Scott above). Anyway I told these two little kids not to call me name otherwise i would hurt them. Immediately, out from the corner of the library came their mom. She said to me “why don’t you take on someone your own size and stay away from my kids”. I said to her, mem if you do not teach your kids how to behave appropriately in front of people of color someday someone not as nice as me will hurt them. Right then, she wanted to call the police. I said to her, “mem the phone is right there why don’t you call the police right now!!!” Then, she hush away. Danna, this type of incidence is a daily occurance for people of color. I think white folks think that they are the majority (thanks to the asian exclusion acts and many others subtle exclusion act for other people of color) that they have the right make fun of them for kicks and the right to claims every piece of land in America belong to them. Anyway, it unlikely that mr. Chai Vang will get a fair trial in an area that is exclusively white (possibly there will be an all whites jury)
December 1st, 2004 at 7:51 am
The Great Free America Hype.
I believe the Hmong came to America with a free country in mind. But it turned out that there are more to it than meets the eyes. There are fine prints everywhere. I’ve been told that ignorant of the law does not excuse someone from breaking it. It is impossible to know every law, rules and regulations out there. I expect that someone will let me know every time I have broken a law that I have broken the law. The Hmong people came here because we thought there are justice and civilized people here, not like communist countries. However, some people here demonstrated exactly the opposite. Is “Free Country” just a myth? Is it when everybody is free, nobody is free?
The early settlers took over the Native American’s land as though it was the Native’s fault that they got mobbed because they were here first. Nowadays the woodland owners blame on the new settlers that they got mobbed because they are here last. It is as though some people in this country thought they were God sent to own the land. I guess not every man are created equal.
When a group of people think they are a better race and cannot see beyond the color of the skin then there is going to be a problem. Respect is what it is all about. There is only one race, the Human Race. Beyond the color of the skin, we all have similar flesh and blood and brain.
In Laos, the Hmong people treated every white man with utmost respect and quality. We treated a white man with more respect than our local leaders. Eventhough what we had to offer was not as good as what he could get at home, still it was our best effort.
Sorry, I kind of got out of track a little bit. I guess what I really want to say is that we are not as free as we thought we could be.
Another thing I want to say is that perception is everything. when things don’t happen the way we perceived to be then we feel it is wrong. Bottome line is that we cannot draw conclusion without having all the facts. People make wrong judgements and wrong assumptions because the lack of all the facts.
December 1st, 2004 at 8:18 am
All i have to say right now is what Sandy said was enlightening, well thought out and I applaud her. I’ve wrriten about 5 comments previouly so im going to make this one very clear no big words just some simple thoughts no ones has brought up. My thought process will be based on the assumption that most of what Chia Vang said is true. Im sorry guys But Chai Vang right or wrong, bottom line is when your in the middle of the woods confronted by numerous men who outnumber you, curse at you beligerently, and shoot to scare you if that really is as the case may be, you will react. Some men may have tucked tail and run, some less skilled men might have shot back missed and had the hunters chase him down and kill him in what they would have eventually claimed to be self defense of course. You know the more i think about it, why is it everyone assumes even if the white men shot first, that they were only shooting to scare? Is that a gurantee they were shooting “to NOT kill him”? Maybe they were just bad shots. Comon now guys logic dictates that men who surround you, curse angrily at you, then fire a shot at you as your walking away, those are acts of hostility. And the law does state that you are allowed to defend yourself with lethal force if lethal forced is being used against you and you feel you are in imminent danger of lethal bodily harm. If you look up any fire arm legal codes it will tell you if a man is shooting at you and you truly beleive he is trying to kill you and you have a gun you are allowed to shoot him back. Its not a definte the white hunter didnt shoot to kill. Hes not a proffessional marksmen in which case his shooting abilities may have not been up to par with Vangs, and when he shot to kill Vang in a rage he simply missed Vang and hit dirt. Vang may have been the more effective killer as he was trained for years in the “US” military. In any case if we are to presume that the reason Vang shot and killed is becasue he is a pure devil(evil incarnate), isnt it just as reasonable an idea and statement to say that those men tried to kill Chai Vang but were not as effective at a gun battle as he was..he was of course a trained military man. I know some of you will react badly to what i have just said but really think about it? If what Chai Vang said is true they shot at him first, he may have beleived it was a shot not close to him becausee they were just horrid shots, and better to shoot back and defend himself before more shots rained upon him from the outnumbering odds of the belligerent white men he was going to have to engage and fight? If he truly thought this then isnt it better to shoot back and defend yourself then die in vain…correct? Im sorry but this whole story and hypothesis of the sequence of actual events just seems too one sided to me. Yes the end result is one small asian man killed sixwhite men. But who is to say that one asian man was the only one in this tragic incident with the intent to kill. If the white hunters really were the ones who shot fisrt, logic would dictate that Chai Vang simply reacted as he was trained he returned fire, and disabled the enemy. Whether he used excessive force i agree is a definate possibilty but that is another subject that deserves its own seperate posting. Chai Vang was a soilder and in war soilders are taught the rules of engagnement, i know this is civilized society, but bottom line is he was shot and and he returned fire. In time of war he would have been a hero, who prevailed and achieved victory through greatly outnumbered odds. Im sorry i am white but bottom line is i have a hard time beleiving that it is a fact Chai Vangs intentions were “bad” and the white hunters were “good” simply because they are now dead. Bottom line maybe Chai was just a better shooter and more adept gun fighter then the causcasian gentlemen were. Maybe if he had not reacted the way he did he would not be here right now. If it is a possibily Chai Vang is a cold blooded murderer it is also just as rational a possiblty those white men were cold blooded murderers, both sides exchanged gun fire just one side ended up winning and one side all shot to hell and dead. Who shot first remains to be seen and i truly beleive that should be the deciding factor in whether or not Chang loses his livlyhood. The way the media is portraying this story im sorry but under any other circumstances I may have beleived the hunters, but Chia Vang isnt getting a fair shot here. And seeing how the media delivers this story proves my point further. Justice has to be blind to race and color the rules have to apply to everyone or it can not rightfully be called justice. It more like justice if your the appropriate skin color. That first shot if it is true the white hunters shot first, could have potentially been followed by a fury of gunfire leaving Vang the deceased is this story. Im sorry but if the Media and law enforcement are goign to cruicify Vang before the results of the investigation come to light then i am willing to play devils advocate here if it can bring light to another perspective i havnt heard stated yet…. if that is what you perceive me as after stating my hypothesis. The thing is everything i said is pure speculation but guess what Vang is right now being torn to pieces by the local media and local communities through pure specualtion, This is American and MR. VAng deserves the right to a fair trial and a chance to defend himself. I pray for a fair, swift and speedy trial for both parties involved god bless you. And another thing for all you racist hicks do you realized that alot of Hmongs in America today are here as a direct result of their part in aiding american in the secret war against cummunism in the Viet Nam war. They were granted Visa to America because of there aid to help fight the war for a free world, for an American cause. We really are quick to forget things when its not convenient for us to remember….
December 1st, 2004 at 8:28 am
And one more thing Vang only saw one gun. He never said he knew all of the other white men were unarmed. In his statement he says when he was initially surrounded he only saw one gun drawnout and “Clearly”. The thing is the others could have had hand guns tucked under their belt. And the last two men he shot Vang clearly states that he did see them with firearms.
December 1st, 2004 at 8:32 am
And im sorry but i have a hard time beleiving that a group of 8 avid hunters who go out into the wilderness with the intention to shoot deer only bring “ONE” gun with them. So are they all supposed to share one gun? Or is it they all had their guns but they failed to bring them to a confronatation….in the wilderness with an supposedly dangerous and armed asian man when the call for help went out on the CB. Sounds fishy yes?
December 1st, 2004 at 10:17 am
You know “Deliverance” was a good movie. Had Vang not shot back when he did maybe he would be buried in behind a tree stump right now and raped to death by those racist name callign hicks! You know everyone is saying what gave Vang the right to kill, If its true the white guy shot first..let me be the first in this forum to say “Who the fuck elected you Executioner to shoot a man trying to leave peacefully and incite a horrible incident you idiot inbred F*ck, you deserve what you got if you shot first, and you asshole you casued the death of 5 other people who probably didnt deserve to be shot down liek a dog like you deserved you fuckin hillbilly f*ck!!!” Im sorry if my grammer was a little bit off in that last quote, i got a little bit heated. Im sorry but there is just too much ignorance in this room. Its a scary thought that the people in this room actually have the power to cast a vote and help in the election process of our president…the leader of our supposed free world… Scott and Kevin are probably inbred hill billys and be careful guys, people do reap what they sow. For the rest of you good, compasionate, god fearing, “INTELLIGENT” people I hope this incident raises an eyebrow for you. Something has to change or im sure this will happen again. And from what i know of Hmong people they generally seem alot less nasty then the racist inbred dipship hillbilies i have encountered in the mountains. And one last time let me state the obvious…America is a melting pot…if you are not Native American you are not indigenous to the US. We are all on the same boat here…..So yes if you tell everyone to go back where they came from then the only people left in the us will be indians. Damn you guys crack me up. The level of stupidy in some of these comments amaze me. How do you people hold jobs? Well i guess somebody needs to cook my curly fries when i go to Jack n The Box. Oh well to the rest keep up the kickass comments…you guys make some very valid points…
December 1st, 2004 at 10:27 am
Sandy i think your comments kickass can i be your friend? I dig intelligent well spoken people it reaffirms my faith in humanity, and the possible progression of our free world into a more civilized place to live. I hope the rest of these inbred dipshiet can raise their children properly and maybe help cultivate an environment why stupid trigger happy hillbilly dip shiets dont go off starting shiet will military trained asians and get their shiet shot off anymore…thats as straight forward as it gets…peace
December 1st, 2004 at 10:48 am
Victor, it’s no use. Some people cannot project. Some people cannot ask, what if it was my brother out there? What if it was my mother? Even if they were trespassing, is it acceptable for them to be threatened or treated inhumanely? Wouldn’t we want the trespasser, accidental or intentional, to be treated humanely by the owner as we would want the trespasser to treat the owner the same. If not, people would be dying left and right during hunting season. To have an exchange that would be easily resolved is to have pleasantries and to assume the best of both sides. Not to assume the worse. Dana, seems to think that everyone here is assuming while she isn’t. We’re just bloggers trying to understand why, and hopefully she takes the time to not only read but strive to understand what others have shared here. Her exchange with Lilly is just so revealing and sad.
So what if he was trespassing? Hunters do it all the time. Some white guy recently slugged an older white gentlemen land owner. The DNR deals with this all the time. Apparently according to all reports, he was asked to leave and he was leaving without incident. What happened afterward is the question? Right at that instant what happened? All we know is that people died for what? A tree stand? It’s not that simple I don’t think. This is where race becomes a potential issue? Was the situation exascerbated by Chai’s nationality? Was he fearful, at that crucial juncture, was he threatened? Common sense says, that even if he may have been leaving peacefully, that the owners weren’t just glad for that.
Victor, if some people can’t think three-dimensionally, then trying to open their minds is useless. Think about this, after the shootings the Hmong community was quick to condemn Vang. They also suggested that Hmong hunters refrain from hunting for the rest of the season for fear of retribution. Why is it the white hunting community hasn’t addressed this? Why hasn’t the hunting community asked, now why would you be fearful of retribution? What have we done to make you feel so? If the hunting community is so inclusive, and so full of comraderie, then why is their no response? The answer is simple. The answer is what is at the heart of the anger, the animosity, the potential reason why the situation may have escalated. I’m not even going to spell it out. Its not a justification, but could be a crucial explanation at that split second. Vang will pay for his crime. People died. People with families, people who were loved, people period. But, if people like Dana refuse to even broach the heart of the exchange (the law just doesn’t look at the end result but the events that led to it) all signs point to continued incidents, even more so now. I don’t understand how people say race has nothing to do with it, then say you Hmong watch your backs. Idiocy. Come on people, race did not give him a free card to kill, but stop fighting what’s blaring and just admit it more than likely exascerbated the situation! The DNR knows this, and have tried to work with the Hmong (not whites sadly) for years!
December 1st, 2004 at 10:51 am
I am quite amazed at several of the comments provided by some here. I am a landowner in the fine state of Wi. and have had to deal many many times with trespassers. It doesn’t matter what race these violators are.
The main point that many may not realize is that there are some cultural differences that exist between Hmongs and their current home. I am an avid hunter (and many would even condemn that) and scout deer hunting possibilities by using trail cameras to attempt to pattern certain deer. Many many times I have had pictures taken of tresspassers on my posted land. Several times these have been Asian people (I won’t say Hmong because I can’t be sure) Their culture makes it difficult to comprehend PRIVATE PROPERTY – KEEP OFF. Mr. Vang could clearly speak and read English but it didn’t seem to matter to him. If you read the police report AND Mr. Vang’s statement it is clear that he killed in cold blood. But what matters is what the jury will say in the end. Get off the racism BS and let the courts handle the situation based on evidence. It appalls me that some always seem to reach out and grab the racism crutch for nearly everything. I know what happened mostly as my close friend lives in Rice Lake and he personally knows several of the people murdered. There is no cover up so let the courts handle it.
December 1st, 2004 at 10:55 am
Victor, you’re name is befitting. Peace, man. All we have is hope, friend.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:12 am
Rick: “grab the racism crutch” As a hunter, you can’t deny that this has not been a bomb waiting to explode. No one here feels sorry for the guy, or think he didn’t know he was trespassing, but property rights is not the sole reason here. Him going crazy for no reason, is not the full explanation. What one good thing that comes out of this is that other issues that have popped up year after year, have now come to light. Lets address them humanely and with open-minds. Not pull out the age-old white guy response “grab the racism crutch” thing. Come on, thinking people know the world is not black and white, good or evil, its a gray mess.
Just read comment 162.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:28 am
although i’m not i’d rather be an inbred hillbilly with my head coming out of my ass than one of you. disgusted and victor- you’ll boodie buddies or what, two of the stupidest people i have ever talked to.
December 1st, 2004 at 11:51 am
Rick you sound like semi-intelligent guy. So Im not going to be the one to rip into you but… let me just do my best in a civil manner to help correct you sir and maybe help shed some light onto your statement.ie- “If you read the police report AND Mr. Vang’s statement it is clear that he killed in cold blood” The Police report in no way states that he killed in cold blood. No where does “Chai” say he killed those men in cold blood. I can only assume and i may be wrong, that you dont have a legal background, legal training and/or experience, or have ever been through a thorough discovery process of a case like this. The police report is not that black and white and yes i have read it many times. At this point his statements and actions during the incident are all VERY still open to interpretation and debate. And yes, hopefully they will all be addressed properly in trial. Thats all i will say on that topic for now. Have to go to work. Sandy is cool!
December 1st, 2004 at 12:06 pm
Actually Kevin your pretty stupid there bro. Cause i have never talked to you. And honestly i wouldnt want to. We wouldnt have anything to talk about, I dont know anything about your pig farming or sheep raping, just not my thing. And Kevin you talk a big game mother F*cker. But i bet in reality your a low end redneck who likes to voice his opinions on anonymous and forums and it makes you feel good about yourself that someone actually HAS to read and listen to your idiotic responses. Its understandble since in real life mostly likly you clean up our offices and i know its sad that no one really repspects the public opionion of a low end red neck janitor. Its cool bro hopefully in the next life time god will bless you with half a brian which is half more then you have right now. And you never knwo bro with your personalty maybe you’ll be lucky enough to run out in the forest talk shiet to an asian and get your shiet shot up. But it might be a blessing for you dude casue in the next life like i said maybe you get half a brain, and you might come back as something better then your self now…like a piece of sh*t or something. Its ok man maybe in the next life time you will get more hugs and less of those “Special” ones from your dad…
December 1st, 2004 at 12:18 pm
My bad Victor, I embellished a bit on the cold blood. All he admitted is that he shot them. My bad. And BTW…… I do know the legal process but mostly in the Labor Law arena. Thanks for reminding me not to do the same things others are on here….Enter personal feelings and add to the facts.
December 1st, 2004 at 12:19 pm
Every one PLEASE read 131
December 1st, 2004 at 12:22 pm
Please don’t talk to Kevin that way. He only understands, succinct sentences and monosyllabic words. It’s not nice to pick on the mentally retarded.
December 1st, 2004 at 12:26 pm
thats funny lily
September 16th, 2005 at 10:01 pm
[…] Owen tells us that Chai Vang, who I blogged about quite a bit, is guilty on six counts of first degree murder. This post of mine has some comments from those in the area after it happened. […]