OK, I lied about the truck gun
In this post, I linked to a cool looking truck gun. Jay G. says in comments:
I dunno. If I’m gonna get the $200 stamp, I want something in the 12 gauge variety…
In that case, check this bad boy 12 gauge out (scroll down):
Based on the Saiga AK47 platform, it has a 12″ barrel, folding stock, SAW pistol grip, tactical light, picatinney(sic) rail, vertical foregrip, cold weather trigger guard, flash hider and HK sights. The base model will run $695 with the options as add-ons. The above picture shows it fully loaded with options.
Now that’s a truck gun! If you like shotguns, of course. I prefer a rifle as a truck gun.
October 6th, 2005 at 10:30 am
That would appear to be an AOW, meaning you still have all the fun of the NFA paperwork, but the tax is only $5.
October 6th, 2005 at 10:31 am
I like the flexibility of the 12 gauge platform. You’ve got birdshot for varmint control. Buckshot for close(r) quarters larger varmint control, and slugs for (minimal) distance.
Let’s face it – you want a truck gun to be able to do it all, and this little beaut sure seems to fit that bill… Plus it looks eeeeevil as all hell, and to boot that big ol’ muzzle…
Just put a bayonet on it and yer good t’ go… 😉
October 6th, 2005 at 12:58 pm
A shotgun can’t do it all, no range.
AOW? Is it a smooth bore pistol or some such? Seems the stock makes it an SBR.
October 6th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
IMHO, what you need a truck gun for is generally NOT long distance shooting. SHTF scenario, the 1:1,000,000 lunatic with a gun, injured animal by the side of the road, etc.
IOW, I wouldn’t trust ANY “truck gun” for shots greater than, say, 50 yards. What’s typically offered as a good truck gun? SKS? Mosin Nagant Carbine? We’re talking about inexpensive guns that don’t get shot much and probably get dinged up.
Now, granted, a slug out of a 12″ smoothbore barrel isn’t going to be terribly accurate at 50 feet, but at close range I don’t think you can get more devastating.
All MHO, of course, and I pray I (nor you) never have to find out just what is needed… I don’t have a dog in this hunt, living in the Volksrepublik I don’t dare keep a firearm in my vehicle…
October 6th, 2005 at 2:43 pm
I would own a lot more guns legally if it weren’t for how you guys talk about “AOW”, “NFA”, “tax”, “SBR”, and all that other junk. It just sucks. It is just totally wrong for me to jump through those kind of hoops in order to buy something that is explicitly protected in the 2nd Amendment. Heck, a _car_ isn’t even mentioned in the entire Constitution, yet I can buy one of those and drive it with very little paperwork and almost no hassle.
I’m not blaming y’all, I’m just bitching about the state of affairs the FedGov has gotten us into.
October 6th, 2005 at 3:30 pm
Looking at how large that magazine is, it’s also probably a large-bore DD (only “sporting” 12 guages are exempt from the large-bore DD classification).
October 6th, 2005 at 3:33 pm
Well, the full sized Saiga shotguns are just firearms. Not sure why that would be different. It’s not a cylindrical magazine (like the Street Sweeper).
October 6th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
Over .50 shotgun with cylinder an 10+ rounds =D.D.
Rifled short barrel + folding stock =S.B.R.
Smooth short barrel + folding stock =S.B.S.
Rifled or smooth short barrel, no stock, forward pistol grip =AOW
Smooth short barrel, no stock or pistol grip =AOW
Rifled short barrel, no stock, no pistol grip = non-NFA pistol
One additional note: all this assumes a new receiver flat … if you use the original Saiga shotgun receiver, and make it under-length, it will always be an SBS, regardless.
And yes, the whole NFA dance sucks and is uncontitutional.
October 6th, 2005 at 4:06 pm
Hope that’s not an admission of guilt 🙂
We got plenty of acronyms/abbreviations. Heck, the other day, I realized I needed a LPK and B/C/CH for my LR so I could complete my OLY CAR 9MM with 16′ BBL. Gonna be totally +1 since the AWB expired. I plan on BIY but dunno if the BL is compatible with the 9mm BBL. Still pondering my BUIS, AFAIK CQB solutions require CW between the BUIS and FSB. And I need to which RDO offers comfortable SP and guarantees consistent POA. FWIW, IMO, this EBR could function as a PDW if the SHTF. Any thoughts on a SIR?
Unless you live under the fourth circuit, which ruled that it could find no definition for AOW that fit that description and scolded the ATF for basically taking the position that if it’s not a firearm, sbr, shotgun, etc. then it must be a AOW.
October 6th, 2005 at 4:32 pm
Uncle,
The forward grip is usually a dead giveaway. I’ve shopped for (but not purchased) a sawed off shotgun (Mel Gibson/Road Warrior style – double barrel with no stock). I’ve found several, but they are usually $300 to $400 and require a $200 tax and NFA paperwork. The dealer that showed it to me said I might want to try a Serbu shorty which is basically a cheap mossberg-like pump shotgun with an 8″ to 12″ barrel and a front pistol grip.
The difference is that rather than being a modified regular shotgun, it’s manufactured as a short barrelled shotgun and thus is required to have the front grip. The tax is only $5, but the shotgun usually cost about $800.
I’m still thinking about the Road Warrior style gun, but can’t really justify it. I mean, where would I even shoot it?
Here are some photos:
AOW: http://hometown.aol.com/ipspics2/supershorty.jpg
SBSG: http://www.internationalpolicesupply.net/sbsg.jpg
The AOW carries the $5 tax, the SBSG a $200 tax.
October 6th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
Does anyone even know why there’s a difference in length requirements between shotguns and rifles?
I mean, I can kinda see the reason for limiting barrel length. The requirements for owning a rifle are, even in the Volksrepublik of MA, less than those for a pistol. If you allow rifles to be cut down, then it blurs the distinction between the two.
(NOTE: I think every gun control law, up to and including the 1934 FFA, is BLATANTLY unconstitutional and should be repealed, post haste. Yes, I think that the average person should be allowed to own fully automatic weapons without paying thousands of dollars for guns worth hundreds.)
But why are shotguns limited to 18″ and rifles 16″? Does that magical 2″ make a shit’s worth of difference in a cut-down 12 gauge?
It’s too bad, too, because I’m with Ravenwood on the “Mad Max” style sawed-off. I’ve even got a couple of side-by-side’s that would make good donor guns. NOTE: They are all fully legal length now, no need for JBTs to kick in my door. In fact, I don’t really own them. I’ve heard about them. Actually, they’re still at the gun store. What was I saying again?
October 6th, 2005 at 4:45 pm
But I can build a pistol on an AR and as long as I put no stock on it, it’s a pistol and its barrel length can be 7 inches to 24 inches. The length of barrel, just like the AWB magazine capacity, are just arbitrary numbers pulled from someone’s ass.
October 6th, 2005 at 5:06 pm
>Well, the full sized Saiga shotguns are just firearms.
Yes, but only because you can only get five round magainzes for them.
October 6th, 2005 at 5:11 pm
They make higher cap mags for Saigas (8 for 12 ga and 10 for 20, IIRC), as shown in the pic above.
October 6th, 2005 at 5:58 pm
Last I checked, you couldn’t get them imported though.
October 6th, 2005 at 7:20 pm
Just saw some from the Izmish (sp?) factory on gunbroker (8 and 10 rounders for 12 and 20 ga). I think you can or someone at gunbroker.com is in trouble.
October 6th, 2005 at 7:34 pm
“The length of barrel, just like the AWB magazine capacity, are just arbitrary numbers pulled from someone’s ass.”
I’d be willing to bet that sometime, somewhere, a research group was paid millions of dollars to spend months pulling ’16’ and ’18’ from someone’s ass
October 7th, 2005 at 2:53 pm
Personally, the difference between $200 and $5 is irrelevant in comparison to having my name on a FedGov list. I refuse to be on such a list.
And I think a lot of firearm companies could have more customers if people didn’t have to worry about whether the product they are interested in was legal in their community if it has a 2″ longer barrel, or if it had a 5-round mag. That’s no way to market a product. It’s a way to keep from getting a product sold.
Can you imagine if Ford were selling a car that was legal as is, but if you were planning on driving to a different state you would have to have special paperwork, special locks, and – fake example – if you were going to Ohio, you couldn’t have 20″ Spinner Rims. Or if you were going to Chicago you would have to park the car a rent another because the car you are driving isn’t legal in that city?
The entire situation is assinine.
(Btw, that super shorty is shit-hot. And there is an example of the problem – I won’t order one because I don’t want to have to read up on every tiny law regarding buying, carrying, transporting, and using the dang thing. And I don’t want to be on a FedGov list.)
October 7th, 2005 at 3:14 pm
Hmm, a little reading has resulted in this gem from the forums of Serbu:
Many of my customers do the ‘corporate method.’ You form a corporation and have it buy the NFA.
No signature;
No photographs;
No fingerprints;
Wait time measured in weeks instead of months.
It works GREAT.
Here’s the thread:
http://www.serbu.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=145
October 7th, 2005 at 9:26 pm
Carnival of Cordite #33
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Small furry creatures, beware! The Carnival of Cordite is here! For you new readers, the Carnival of Cordite is a weekly roundup of blog posts relating to guns, shooting, defense, hunting, and the law and
October 8th, 2005 at 1:44 am
While I understand the disagreeable attitudes towards the unconstituional NFA laws, I can’t understand how a gunner couldn’t adapt his tactics from, say, a Serbu Super Shorty to a Mossberg 500 with 18″ barrel. How many of you folks are going to want to carry said weapon around under your raincoats? How many are going to insist that if fit into an attache case (which will be X-rayed everywhere you go, anyway)?
For effectiveness of the weapon, you have to consider the ballistics. A shotgun round develops full power in a 24″ barrel. Anything less, and you begin to lose power and instead, generate a humongous flash at the end of the barrel. The 18″ barrel in most “home defense” weapons is a compromise for weapon handiness at the cost of ballistic efficiency, but reducing the barrel to 12″ or less costs too much in ballistic performance.
If any of you SBR or AOW folks REALLY want to buy a performance weapon, cheaply, that meets all Fed requirements for a “firearm” and most state requirements as well, I recommend either the Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Pistol Caliber Carbine or the Kel-Tec Su-16 rifle, both of which fold up to fit in an attache case.
Rivrdog
October 8th, 2005 at 2:33 am
Jay G,
You aren’t really suggesting that a Mosin is only accurate to 50 yards, are you? I must be misreading it…
October 8th, 2005 at 11:18 pm
Kirk,
No, not at all. Just that “trunk guns” in general (the Nagant carbine came to mind because the gun shop where I bought my 91/30 had a carbine for $99) are inexpensive guns, usually old mil-surps, that generally don’t get much range time or TLC.
IOW, you’re not likely to see a $1,500 M1A stuffed under the front seat of a pickup truck…
October 12th, 2005 at 4:13 pm
Well, I have to admit at least some of it is simple contrariness. I want an SBR _because_ they don’t want me to.