Protecting honey baked ham from terrorists
The ACLU of Georgia released copies of government files on Wednesday that illustrate the extent to which the FBI, the DeKalb County Division of Homeland Security and other government agencies have gone to compile information on Georgians suspected of being threats simply for expressing controversial opinions.
Two documents relating to anti-war and anti-government protests, and a vegan rally, prove the agencies have been “spying” on Georgia residents unconstitutionally, the ACLU said.
For example, more than two dozen government surveillance photographs show 22-year-old Caitlin Childs of Atlanta, a strict vegetarian, and other vegans picketing against meat eating, in December 2003. They staged their protest outside a HoneyBaked Ham store on Buford Highway in DeKalb County.
An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.
“They told me if I didn’t give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested,” Childs said on Wednesday.
The government file lists anti-war protesters in Atlanta as threats, the ACLU said. The ACLU of Georgia accuses the Bush administration of labeling those who disagree with its policy as disloyal Americans.
Sure, this Childs person is a bit, er, off but she has a right to be. And arrested for writing down a plate number? Give me a break.
January 27th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
If you’re vegetarian, you’re anti-pork, which puts you one step closer to being Muslim, at which point you’re at least a terror symp if not one of the many people tied for third on the al Qaeda depth chart. So I think the government is on the right track. This kind of effort stands a much better chance of preventing another 9/11 than, say, filling all the translator jobs in the intelligence agencies.
January 27th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
i thought that was what the goverment wanted you to do when you saw somthing supisious, be a good witness and do not get involved.
Though I would think that you can write down a license plate with out anyone knowing it.
January 27th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Then again, those are good places to try and identify folks from ALF, ELF and MILF.
Ok, maybe not MILF…
January 27th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
If I were protesting and saw someone suspiciously taking pictures of us (I assume that’s what happened), I would record the vehicle info.
And I would probably have been arrested (for assault).
January 27th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Maybe I’m just dense, but how is taking pictures of a protest spying? If a reporter had done the same, or if a blogger had done the same, it would have been just fine, right?
BTW, if the agent really threatened to jail that woman if she didn’t give him the piece of paper with his license number, then that would be wrong, but a) I’m not sure I should believe her and b) it doesn’t change the main question – how is this spying, and no matter what you call it, how is it wrong?
January 27th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
300,000 folks can stroll across the border into the country every year….but they want to go through my underwear at the airport? And now….we are going to make lists of vegan protestors?
I don’t believe in Homeland Security. The folks who I personally know that work for it refer to headquarters as “The Puzzle Palace.”
When you gear up to catch Osama…and he never shows…you end up putting anyone you can think of on the watch list or no-fly list, stealing tweezers, arresting folks who crack jokes. Your list ends up including CCL holders, vegan nuts, joggers or ANYONE who can’t accuse you of profiling. You would NEVER put an Arab on there.
It’s over.
January 27th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Robert is right!
Our government is maintaining open borders, importing Islam and then making its own citizens suspects and treating us like criminals.
Why do we keep voting for these Republican and Democrat traitors?
January 27th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
If a reporter had done the same, or if a blogger had done the same, it would have been just fine, right?
Reporters and bloggers are private individuals and can do whatever they please within limits. I don’t want someone paid by my tax dollars spying on people because they are vegetarians.
January 27th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Makes me wonder if J Edgar Hoover is actually dead….this is a throwback to the commie hunts of the fifties. I too object to using my tax dollars to protect Honey Baked Ham from Vegan “terrorists”…whether you play semantics with the word “spying” or not I dont know how the hell you are not upset about it.
January 27th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
“Reporters and bloggers are private individuals and can do whatever they please within limits. I don’t want someone paid by my tax dollars spying on people because they are vegetarians.”
She isn’t just a vegetarian. She’s an animal rights activist who is working with a group establishing an anarchist infoshop, whatever that is. Ever heard of eco-terrorism? Eco-terrorists haven’t killed anyone yet, but it’s probably a matter of time. The FBI would be crazy to not collect information on those groups.
January 27th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Whatever she is, i don’t see that as justification for arresting her for not handing over a license plate number she’d written down.
January 27th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
Les, how the f%$# are you somehow linking an anarchist infoshop to eco-terrorism? Instead of saying “whatever that is” why don’t you use something called google..then you would find this and you would probably realize that anarchists have a lot in common with libertarians (and a whole lot not in common too).
January 28th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Uncle: agreed, as I said above.
Manish: If you read the article Uncle linked to, she’s also an environmental activist. “Caitlin Childs, 17, lives in Atlanta. She has been involved with queer, feminist, anarchist, animal-rights and environmental activism for several years.”
January 28th, 2006 at 4:52 am
Les, you are fixating on the subject of the spying, and you have lost track of the difference between private interests like reporters and bloggers watching her and the government watching her. That’s really sad.
January 28th, 2006 at 10:53 am
I believe Les’ point is that “animal rights”, “ecological”, “anarchist” and other “activist” groups have been linked with terrorst activity in the US…a valid use for FBI and DHS resources to investigate. I’m not going to take the time to look it up right now, but I remember seing a story last week about several “activists” being arrested in the Northwest for domestic terrorism. Here in Virginia, a popular local butcher has had has property vandalized and/or set on fire more than once. Those “harmless” Vegans aren’t so harmless after all.
There is no “reasonable expectation of privacy” when in a public place (or even in a private place when open to public view), therefore, photographing people at protests is decidely NOT spying. I would think that, if the FBI/DHS knows that these groups are involved in domestic terrorist activities, it would be remiss of them NOT to try to find out exactly who is involved in the groups.
Finally, we are simply taking little Caitlin’s word that she was arrested for writing down a license number. Of course we ALL know that extremists would NEVER lie to advance their agenda or to make “the man” look bad now don’t we. Let me ask a question: If she was arrested simply for writing down the license number of the car, why did the press release specify that she “and another protester” were arrested? Were they BOTH writing down the license number? Or just maybe they doing something else that resulted in their arrest…like, for instance, assaulting the agent as these actvists seem to be prone to do…that little Caitlin conveniently forgot to mention while talking to the press.
I’m not saying that the goverment is beyond reproach or doesn’t engage in questionable activities; and I’m not saying we shouldn’t question those activities. But we also need to be careful not to simply accept propaganda fed to us by people with an obvious agenda.
Perhaps the FBI/DHS WAS overreaching in conducting the surveillance of this protest…but we don’t have enough information based upon this report to reach that conclusion as definitively as some of you seem to have done.
Oh, and persimmon: Who’s JOB is it to protect us from terrorism? Is it reporters and bloggers, or the government? Do reporters and bloggers have some special privacy exemption? If it is an invasion of privacy for the government to do it, it is an invasion of privacy for anyone else to do it as well. Privacy is privacy. What you are saying is that it is OK for reporters and bloggers to, say, get your library records, medical records, google search records and publish them? Because they aren’t the government, they aren’t violating your privacy? By the way, kudos to Google for refusing to give up the search records that the administration is trying to get and shame on Yahoo and MSN for caving without even so much as a peep.
January 28th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Wait a minute.
An undercover Homeland Security officer assigned to spy
(aka “conduct surveillance”) on a veggie protest???
Is any and or all activism now suspect? That certainly appears
to be the goal. Keeps the fear levels higher than a kite.
Seems that paranoia is rampant.
After a 4-year plus failure to find bin Laden, the Powers That Be
might could have used that undercover dude to search for him.
Wonder how much money the Honeybaked corporation donated to
political campaigns?
January 28th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Les..your point is what? Is the FBI tracking down anti-abortion activists? They’ve been known to perform acts of terror…but I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the FBI isn’t tailing James Dobson or the other 50 million anti-abortionists in the United States. What about gun activists? After all, gun activists are responsible for 11,000 deaths a year in the United States. Do you see where this is going?
January 28th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
To everyone who thinks I’m an idiot and or fascist. The FBI investigates stuff where there’s a suspicion of crime or criminal activity. That’s a good thing. If they had done a better job of that before it’s possible 9/11 could have been averted.
Who knows, maybe they’re barking up the wrong tree investigating this group, but if so, please explain very specifically what the harm is. OK, they took Childs’ picture during a public protest where she was specifically seeking public attention and media attention. Unless you’re going to claim that the camera stole part of her soul, exactly what harm was done by taking her picture and noting her activities?
And if the FBI can’t investigate her, who else can’t they investigate? Please list your criteria for investigating someone and the hurdles the FBI or police would have to clear in order to write down someone’s name and take their picture. Now think how those rules would impede investigations of criminal or terrorist activity.
January 28th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
I’m on Les’ side here. Eco-terrorists are a real and serious danger, and they have killed people. Logging companies have been mail-bombed, and the Unibomber was an eco-terrorist. He was documented as attending several ALF/ELF meetings.
Survail them? Absolutely. I would consider it (further) incompetence if they didn’t. However, the reverse is still true. They have the right to take down your license plate, spook. Deal with it, and don’t let them spot you next time. Take your lumps, thug, and work on your tradecraft.
January 29th, 2006 at 11:48 am
The article plainly says the officer was from Homeland Security and not the FBI,
though DHS shared their info with the FBI.
And since the offices charged with defending national security prior to
the terrorist attack on 9/11 ignored their own staff’s warnings about an
impending international terror attack and harrassed those for providing said info, what logic
can be applied to extending their surveillance powers over those who
voice anti-meat opinions?
Further empowering the policies of failure seem feeble public relations
at best.
Certainly invesitgative authority needs to be in place, but more attention
needs to be placed on prioritizing threats.
January 29th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Joe,
Are you intentionally missing the point or just ignoring the parts of the argument that don’t fit neatly into your preconceptions?
The FACT is that these groups have DEMONSTRABLY been involved in terrorist acts within the United States. Even the ones who have not been PROVEN to have been involved in said terrorist acts, have voiced strong and unmitigated support of the perpetrators of said terrorist acts…even to the point of providing financing for their crminal defenses.
I am not privy to all the information that the DHS or FBI or Georgia State Police or any other law enforcement entity has in making the decisions about who to investigate and who not to. Neither are you. You are ASSUMING that these people are nothing more than harmless vegetarians. The fact that the organizations with which these people associate, participate in domestic terrorist activities does not support your assumption.
Manish: Do established pro-life groups engage in, and/or support people who engage in, terrorist acts? Not to my knowledge. Just because a few unhinged individuals who happen to be pro-life commit crimes, that does not make any pro-life organization guilty by association. In fact, every pro-life organization of which I am aware unanimously and vociferously condemn acts of violence when they occur.
The difference is that the ELF/ALF, Peta et al… actively participate in and support the violent terrorist activities. Therefore, the organizations themselves and as a result, the members of the organizations, are suspect and SHOULD be investigated.
January 30th, 2006 at 1:21 am
Sailor,
I see zero information in the story Say Uncle linked to which mentions
any group involved in terrorist acts. One link I found to the Mutual Aid
Network did in fact mention programs to provide transportation for
families of inmates to visit their jailed relatives and efforts to help pay for legal representation.
The terror group recently nabbed by the Justice Dept. is certainly conducting
criminal acts – but where is the relation to the girl mentioned in this story?
In your comment, you condemn her by guilt thru association and then in your
comment to Manish, you chide him for assuming guilt by association.
January 30th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
There are three distinct issues here:
1) The arrest allegedly for writing down a license number. If true, that’s outrageous. At present, the story is unconfirmed and coming from someone who couldn’t recognize a fact if it slapped her in the face. OTOH, it’s been kicking around for several days, and AFAIK the government hasn’t responded at all. Maybe they’re saving it for the courts, but in my experience government agencies are never shy about trying legal cases in the press – except when they can’t come up with a story that they want to expose in public.
2. Possible spying on protestors for political purposes rather than for legitimate law enforcement or security purposes: We simply don’t know enough about this group to make any judgements about that. This protest itself seems pretty harmless, but there might well be links between the people involved and those who are anything but harmless. E.g., someone who tears up a medical laboratory and releases the lab rats is delaying the release of drugs that could save lives – it’s not as dramatic a way of killing people as crashing jetliners into buildings, but in some cases it might kill as many. Obviously, the feds might have information that, for instance, one of the protesters is the girlfriend of some eco-terrorist that they are trying to find and arrest, and that they can follow her to his hideout afterwards. OTOH, it’s not unknown for government agencies to spy and put together dossiers purely for political purposes. We don’t know, and it’s unlikely we’ll ever find out.
3. Possible misallocation of scarce security resources: A past example of this (and #2, too), was J. Edgar Hoover using FBI agents to spy on civil rights groups when he couldn’t find the manpower to follow up leads to the Mafia. Watching a peaceful protest might be a way to waste time and avoid dealing with actually dangerous guys, but it’s not totally unreasonable. For example, maybe there are seemingly solid confidential informant tips that indicate something or someone there is well worth watching. Chances are they’re wasting their time, either because their CI is lying or because he’s another drugged-out fruitcake, but since cops aren’t psychic, the best investigators spend a whole lot of time on leads that don’t finally lead to any evidence of criminal activity. I can’t comment on the fed’s judgment without seeing the data they are using, and that includes things like CI information that obviously shouldn’t be public. So, as much as I distrust the judgment of government workers in general, I can’t show that they’re wrong this time…