Speaking of open carry
If you do, you should read this:
Almost no one takes the next step, which makes it the moral duty of anyone carrying openly to be able to retain their weapon against a gun-grab (not a political grab, a REAL, physical, grab). This moral duty EXCEEDS the morality of your right of carry, by the way.
Indeed.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Yes, and if you can’t make absolutely sure that nobody will steal your car and use it to run over a sixth-grader, then you have the moral obligation not to park your car in public where anyone can grab it and use it as a weapon!
/sarcasm
I believe that it’s foolish to carry openly without retention, but I don’t think that it’s a moral failing any more than possessing anything else in plain view that could be grabbed and used as a weapon.
Gun rights advocates are always talking about how a gun is just an inanimate object, and that ownership of said object should be no different from any other, but when it comes to a contentious issue like open carry, many are willing to borrow a tactic from gun control advocates and argue that because we own something, we are morally responsible if someone steals it and commits a crime with it.
It’s pragmatic to make sure that you control access to your weapon just like you would control access to your car, but the moral obligation to take your car keys with you when you park at the grocery store does not exceed the morality of parking the car. Carrying openly without retention may make you foolish, but morality has nothing to do with it.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I’m gonna disagree as well. I have no moral duty whatsoever to prevent someone from stealing and misusing my tools. The moral duty is on the OTHER person to not steal them.
It is pure pragmatism that I lock my doors set the alarm before I leave the house, and it’s also pragmatism that made me buy a gun safe.
Morality has nothing to do with it.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Depends on how you’re defining retention. There’s “Don’t carry your pistol in a holster that allows anyone to just grab it” or “Make sure you understand the proper jujitsu move to break the wrist of the guy who just grabbed your gun”.
I’m ok with browbeating people on the former, not so cool on it with the latter.
For example, if I were to go somewhere I could OC, I’d use the Blackhawk Serpa. I was at a match the other day when the RO wanted to see my pistol. Even knowing HOW the damned thing worked, because of the angle required to push the release button, he couldn’t get it out of my holster. That’s good enough retention for a holster.
As far as battling someone who’s trying to get your pistol, well like WB said above there’s a limit to what one can do. And you need to take that into consideration when carrying.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Alan, you’re opinions on anything related to “morals” are suspect, to say the least 😉
August 20th, 2009 at 11:30 am
I think he could have used a better phrase than “moral duty”, but I grok the concept behind his post.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Seeeeerrrrrrpaaaaa!
Noooooooooo
BLLLLLAAAAACKHAAAAAWWWWK!
frangible aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmoooooooooooooooooo
SEEERRRRRRPAAAAAAAAA!
http://www.gunbloggerconspiracy.com/blog/?p=386
(Sorry I had to.)
August 20th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Everyone stand back, MSJ has a case of the Harbles.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Combining UNLOADED with open carry gives the opinion — that’s all that it is — an anti-gun flavor.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
So why only a “moral” duty when open carrying? Shouldn’t the duty also apply to concealed carry?
Obviously, you have a duty to take reasonable precautions to ensure your weapon, or screwdriver for that matter, doesn’t fall into the hands of those who would foreseeably misuse it. That is the responsibility of being a free person. But those precautions could simply be awareness and avoidance, i.e., see their interest and tactically withdraw from situations beyond your capabilities. Perhaps if you will be going amongst a group of experienced violent felons, you should change how you carry your weapon just as you change how you carry your wallet in high theft areas?
Trick is, unless you are a trained Special Ops person, don’t think you are one. A man or woman’s gotta know their limitations and adapt to compensate.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
JKB,
My guess is that concealment counts as a retention strategy, since people don’t try to take stuff you don’t have.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86525&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
From what I have gathered on that forum, the AR-15 in question was unloaded because they where worried that someone from acorn would try to grab it. Also it looks like the man with the rifle has a retention holster (there is a black tab on it).
There was also a large group open carrying together which I think is safer that doing it solo.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I’m also going to have to respectfully disagree with him. Yes, I wear a retention holster when I OC. No, I am no ninja. The risk that he posits is currently unknown, as well. There have been zero documented instances of a non-LEO open carrier having his gun grabbed. None. I believe that this is because, for the vast majority of OC’ers, the BG’s you run into are just not that into a hard target. Also related is that police gun grabs are almost always during grappling / attempting to use non-lethal force to subdue.
Scott, I agree. Why the hell would you carry an unloaded weapon? Especially open? I understand that it is the law in CA if you don’t have a permit, and those guys are tryng to make a political point, but everywhere else (that I know of) that allows OC allows loaded. me personally, I carry loaded, one in the chamber, decocker on. Decock and draw are one motion.
Respectfully,
Pol
August 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I am going to disagree. My moral duty is to protect myself and those under my protection. While I do agree that a retention holster is the smart move, I do not consider it a moral obligation.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Moral obligation?
Is it a MORAL obligation to lock my doors or keep all my weapons in a safe?
Nope, it’s not a MORAL obligation, no way, no how.
Does it make sense to do so for other reasons? Of course! It protects YOU from someone grabbing it and using it against you and yours, therefore it is a good idea.
But it is NOT, most definitely, a moral obligation.
Bill
August 20th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
sorry but that is horseshit… there is no evidence or any history of cases showing that people get guns grabbed out of their holsters by criminals…
hell, ive never even seen ONE story of it happening to a non cop…
August 21st, 2009 at 12:56 am
BS to Riverdog. He’s been on the side with GFW so often, he got dropped from my bookmarks a LONG time ago. And now he pops up at uncle… disappointed.
August 21st, 2009 at 12:58 am
Only one “horseshit” out of at least ten negative replies. That must be a record. Thanks for the polites, peoples. Some other factoids/idears:
1. OK, I’m a retired LEO, and I had the stats read to me every month by the Roll-Call Sergeant on LEO’s killed in the line of duty. About a third of them are killed with their own guns.
2. Yes, you have the same duty in concealed carry, but you don’t have to work as hard at it, since you have the advantage of concealment.
3. No, I’m not backing down on “moral duty”. If, as an LEO, I screwed up an arrest, that’s hard on the arestee, but fixable. If I screwed up a gunfight, that’s even harder on someone. If I got my gun taken away and DIDN’T die as a result (the usual outcome), I can fairly guarantee that the gun would have been used in crime, and maybe to take a life. If you don’t think THAT motivated me to practice my retention moves, think again.
4. It is not common to have a gun grabbed, but with the new emphasis on OC, it WILL become more common, guaranteed.
Here’s one back at all y’all: if retaining your OC weapon is NOT a moral duty, just what the hell is?
August 21st, 2009 at 2:00 am
It’s my moral duty not to shoot someone who doesn’t need shooting, it’s my moral duty to protect my family. Part of protecting my family is retaining my weapon that doesn’t make training for weapon retention a moral duty, it defiantly does not EXCEED the morality of my right to carry. I carry every day, most of the time I carry openly, some situations I will conceal. If I know I’m going to be in crowds of people I’m more likely to chose to conceal my firearm partly for retention reasons and partly to avoid the “Oh my god he has a gun”.
BTW My usual carry holster is a open top leather out side the waist band.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:07 am
Re: #3. Screwed up on an arrest? What does that mean – like you violated a persons natural rights under color of law? Or you intimidated them with the threat of deadly force mistakenly? How is that ‘fixable?’ Just because you apologize doesn’t fix the situation, you still horribly violated that persons freedoms!
I do feel sorry for cops because our legal system is so severe that understandably people will do all they can to avoid going to the rape-cage. So then cops take it up a notch because criminals did, and the hapless citizenry caught between the war on everything gets the P.ortable E.lectro S.hock T.orture (PEST) device applied because mom is late for work and doesn’t want to get out of the minivan because her kid is crying.
I love how you just throw in ‘fixable’ – it’s such a perfect demonstration of how little LEOs give a shit about brutalizing the citizens.
August 21st, 2009 at 4:00 am
Of course you are not backing down, escalating every situation is part of the training also beat into your skull — inalienable rights be damned — YOU said so YOURSELF:
“This moral duty EXCEEDS the morality of your right of carry, by the way.”
Listen to him folks. Our right ends whenever HIS morality strikes HIS fancy. It means that much to him.
And riverdog, your morality question might as well be a discussion on religion, everyone will set it somewhere different. But the difference between you and the rest of us (WHO JUST WANT TO BE LEFT THE HELL ALONE) you want to use your rationale on morality to infringe upon the rights of others.
=====
Uncle, you may want to rethink your support, because riverdog is quite simply advocating for MORE GUN CONTROL. Although he admits it is about morality for him — a belief system, a religion — he cannot be wrong and is willing to allow his beliefs to EXCEED our rights.
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It’s been years riverdog, but once again I see you for you and say FU.
August 21st, 2009 at 9:37 am
“because riverdog is quite simply advocating for MORE GUN CONTROL”
Funny, but I didn’t see anything where he said that his opinion should become law. Expressing an opinion and trying to convince others of your position isn’t violating anyone’s rights, inalienable or otherwise.
August 21st, 2009 at 3:28 pm
This isn’t rocket science. He fully admits that his opinion should “EXCEED” … “your right”. Without the power of the state, how else does your local GFW neighbor’s opinion about firearms EXCEED your rights?
August 21st, 2009 at 3:46 pm
He fully admits that his opinion should “EXCEED” … “your right”
Nope, read it again. He does not say his opinion > “your right” he said in his opinion the *morality* not legality of retention > the morality of your right to OC.
I have the opinion that lots of things exceed lot’s of other things. It is my opinion that the morality of charity exceeds the morality of selfishness, yet I have never and will never advocate the gov’t forcing you to be charitable. It is also my opinion that Pizza exceeds cockroaches as a food. Doesn’t mean I want to ban the disgusting little creatures. You can eat them all you want, but last time I checked, having and expressing a low opinion of you because you like to eat them wasn’t illegal.
August 21st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
1) comparing what happens to LEOs getting their guns taken versus citizens is a bad comparison… non-LEO’s dont regularly get up in the faces of criminals like cops do…
2) no one has yet cited a specific news article of it actually happening…
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Back in the cavemen days, 1973 or so, when Chicago cops could only carry S&W or Colt revolvers, in .38 Special, and the CPD issued the ammunition (low-penetration semiwadcutter), in Bill Jordan or FBI thumbreak holsters, the school detective told us about somebody trying to grab his gun. He showed us his other gun, a S&W Model 36, pointed to his navel, and said, “I shot him right there”.
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 pm
r’dog: I have a moral duty to not commit actual crime (actual as opposed to purple-law crap). That is “what the hell is” a moral duty. Your pontificating? Not so much.