OC Case in Court
OMG!! Man with a gun buying groceries:
It is legal to carry a firearm openly in the state of Washington, but prosecutors with the Vancouver city attorney’s office filed the charge — which makes it unlawful to display a weapon in a manner “that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm” — based on witness observations.
Witnesses, including two men who have concealed weapons permits, told police Kirby looked like “Wyatt Earp, ready to draw.” Witnesses also said he was “giving everyone the eyeball with his hand on the gun,” according to police reports.
May 14th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Hmm. Not enough information to really be sure, but if he was holding the butt of the gun, even with it holstered, and staring down people while doing so, that’s not cool. Sounds like he was trying to cause a scene.
May 14th, 2010 at 8:45 am
Ummmmm….. if the gun stayed holstered the entire time, then how do they have a case ???
May 14th, 2010 at 8:56 am
Except he wasn’t buying groceries at all–he was standing around AT the grocery store, not shopping, with his hand on his weapon. If people who carry weapons thought he looked sketchy, he probably did.
The point of normalizing OC is to look normal, not look like a public spree shooter trying to get up the nerve 🙂
May 14th, 2010 at 9:37 am
If he was posturing like the report says, he needs the smackdown put on him. If the the “witnesses” were simply crapping their pants over seeing a gun, they need to grow the hell up.
May 14th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Standing with your hand on the butt of the gun is a definite social faux pas while carrying openly.
Combined with provocative behavior, it should result in some sort of sanction or penalty.
May 14th, 2010 at 9:53 am
I normally look like a biker or a thug. Would you be comfortable with me carrying a pistol in the grocery store? I would like you to define NORMAL without the definition being normal for whom. Basically normal as it applies to everyone.
May 14th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Why not just say “He looks like a TERRORIST” and deny him all of his civil rights? I mean, people on the street can distinguish a law abiding citizen from a homicidal maniac just by looking at them, why not just skip the whole jury trial thing and convict a person based solely on their appearance? You gotta go with your gut on these things, people!
May 14th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Too bad he wasn’t black. Then the cops could have just shot him and we would have never read about this case.
People that don’t live with weapons on a 24 hour a day basis don’t understand that weapons are USUALLY just tools. Tools are occasionally treated casually. As long as this guy wasn’t an active danger, then the ole stink eye is Constitutionally protected, with or without his Wyatt Earp stance.
May 14th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Tam Says:
Standing with your hand on the butt of the gun is a definite social faux pas while carrying openly.
—-
I find myself doing this at USPSA matches. Definitely something to avoid when open carrying.
“Checking” the gun by touch is a tell for concealed carry. With open carry, it could be perceived as threatening move.
Makes a good case for a holster with retention. More peace of mind that the gun is where it should be.
May 14th, 2010 at 11:04 am
The cops put their hands on their guns when i walk by. Why would they care if someone else does it unless they are planning to draw down on you?
May 14th, 2010 at 11:33 am
I’m with John Smith; when LEOs stop standing around with their hand on their gun giving passers-by the stinkeye, I’ll be more worried about other citizens doing the same.
May 14th, 2010 at 11:35 am
When concealing and open, I use my elbow to check the thumb break and solidity of the handgun/holster. Rarely do I use my hand to check for it, but I do sometimes. What I *DO* do is occasionally adjust the horizontal position of the holster to slide the setup forward until it hits the belt loop. After sitting, it tends to slide backwards a few inches. Since he had just gotten out of his vehicle, I’d say he may have only been readjusting the position of his holster on his belt.
May 14th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Waitaminnit…
Looking like Wyatt Earp? Complete with cowboy outfit, revolver, stetson, etc?
Sure he wasn’t an extra from a movie set?
May 14th, 2010 at 11:51 am
John Smith,
I don’t care if you’re dressed like Agent Smith; if you keep finger-fucking your heater in the produce aisle at Kroger, I’m going to be uncomfortable.
Stop touching it.
May 14th, 2010 at 11:57 am
I don’t care if you’re dressed in a Brooks Brothers suit, shorts and a t-shirt, or a Tutu and a tiara, if you’re “giving everyone the eyeball with [your] hand on the gun,” it’s threatening.
Period. End of story.
May 14th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Security cam footage from the store should help make clear what was really happening. But will it ever see the light of day?
May 14th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Remember, this is according to witnesses, and judging by some of the comments here, some of us are pretty damned intimidatable.
Except for ‘violating’ the stupid law where someone else gets to tell you how you intended something, he did nothing illegal.
May 14th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
So Tam what about if I am dressed like a cop?
May 14th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Like john smith, I look like a thug( actually i look like a pissed-off gorilla with a hangover) & thats on a good day.
I would OC more often but I’ve had cops step back & release the top strap on their holsters while palming the grip when i smiled at them when i wasn’t carrying.
It’s not our fault that we just look like trouble, however, we have to take that into account when we are around the . . . normals(god i hate that word).
The way that some of the “going armed to the terror of the people” type laws are written, it is fairly easy for a cop to make a case. Bad law but still the law.
May 14th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Bad law but still the law.
there’s your problem. break bad laws.
May 14th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Actually after listening to the 911 call, it sounds like the only problem had was that they did not realise it is legal to OC there.
http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;id=62
have a listen yourself.
Oh ATLien, i agree, howeve,r most of them(bad laws) have to go to court so that they can get smacked down after costing the city/county/state a buttload of money. That seems to be the only thing that gets their attention.
May 14th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Skinning your smokewagon is still a threat … and yes, a cop who does it for no good reason other than being near a peasant needs to be disciplined.
I agree with Tam here, as apparently two CCW holding witnesses did in the article. Stop masturbating with yer pistol in public. Unless you have a valid reason to touch skin to it, stop it. If you are worried about retention, get a strap on it.
May 14th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Even in full Barney Fife drag.
Maybe, maybe if you’d just pulled me over in a bad neighborhood at zero-dark-thirty, but even then I’d expect you to be all friendly and polite about it.
May 14th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Packetman,
You’re goddam right that sloppy gun handling intimidates me. The thought of some goober who can’t quit fondling his piece blowing a hole in me by accident is a lot more intimidating than the idea of somebody busting in wearing a ski mask and waving a gauge. At least society lets me preemptively shoot the latter, while I have to wait until Gomer accidentally plugs me with his Taurus Judge before I can so much as dial 911 without all the other gun bloggers calling me “chicken”.
May 14th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Tam,
It’s my opinion that you and others here are reading a lot more into this incident than is reported in the article. Nowhere is it mentioned or even suggested that he was “fondling his piece”. In fact what is reported is this:
How much do you want to bet that those other witnesses are the two who have CCW’s, and that those two gents are antagonistic to open carriers? ‘Cause we know how supportive of open carriers the CCW community can be.
And for the record, I didn’t call you ‘chicken’; you ascribed that to me. Sloppy gun handling makes me uncomfortable, though we’ve not positively established that’s what went on here, just speculation.
That being said, there seem to be a lot of folks getting all butt-hurt because someone (who might not like what you do in the first place) says this guy was going to try to reenact the Gunfight at the OK Corral.
May 14th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
My point is made.
Open carry advocates who try to make the point by being aggressivly assertive will always lose more ground than they gain.
You have to change minds. You don’t change minds by playinmg into fears, however irrational.
May 14th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Yeah, the guy who claims he was acting all Wyatt Earp might be Robert Reich, or someone else who has the tendency to overlay reality with their own preconceptions before reporting the mashup as reality.
If, and I say if, he was spitting tobacco, twirling his six gun, and asking if the patrons of the store felt lucky, then by all means throw the book at him. Looking at the location, I think it’s much more likely some sheep passing for a human being called the cops, exaggerating what was happening because damn it, guns are eeevvviillll and so spinning a tall tale is lying for justice.
May 15th, 2010 at 7:21 am
I have never had a conversation with a cop that he did not drop his hand to his gun. I didn’t pee my pants, what am I doing wrong?
I have told one or two of them who were doing it as intimidation, instead of just a normal habit, that they either needed to pull it or quit it, before I hurt them. In one case, the man wasn’t even aware that he was doing it, until he started to speak and dropped his hand to his gun. He looked startled, when he realized he did it. So, I asked him to think about why he did it. Was it because, unconsciously, he was asserting his “power”? He looked a little pensive, and then said he would think about it. He further stated that until I threatened to take it seriously if he didn’t quit it, he didn’t realize he did it. I believed him. He seemed like a decent guy and we had another 20 minutes of pleasant conversation.
Guess what! I didn’t call 911, I didn’t file a complaint nor did I pee my pants. The point? Fuck the sissies who do.
May 15th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
As someone who has carried concealed for about 35 years and in uniform for much of the last 25 years, I have to agree with several points here and offer some defense regarding others.
First, one thing I know Tam has strong feeling about is too much “fondling” of your piece, holstered or not. STOP TOUCHING IT. I agree with this philosophy and make sure that the officers I supervise do not partake in excessive “administrative handling” of their weapons, lethal or otherwise (as in tasers or OC).
I AM guilty of resting my arm and or hand on my holstered gun while in uniform and have observed several other uniformed officers to do the same. Not on the butt, but usually on top of the rear of the slide / retention strap area. I never do this while wearing a concealment style holster, because the are tight to the body, unlike a jacket slotted uniform holster. I also do not do it in times of eminent danger or as a threat or intimidation move. It’s usually done unconsciously because in a “Sam Brown” belt with a jacket slotted holster, it’s a convenient resting place for your hand or arm when you are in a relaxed mode. I often do the same on the opposite side while in uniform, resting my hand or arm on my radio. Now that I know it can freak some people out, I will have to be more aware about doing it.
As for the witnesses’ stories, believe me, it is not unusual for 10 witnesses to see the same thing and give ten totally different statements about it. I tend to take with a grain of salt the “draw stance” story along with the other “I’m your huckleberry” type stare down story. I view them as more hoplophobic (thanks Col. Jeff) emotional constructions than fact. I have encoutered this phenomenon on numerous occasions.
The guy has a CCW permit and was obviously trying to make a statement about OC. I would tend to think he would be on his best behavior after being asked to leave a mall prior to this little incident… unless he is a total dumbass.
May 15th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
The only time open carry has disturbed me is in formation and Port ARMS is called, especially when you got a shorty to your side.
May 18th, 2010 at 4:17 am
Hard to tell. Maybe he was a mall ninja maybe he was new to carrying a gun. It is possible, that he was afraid of a gun grab and thought he could rest his hand on said gun “casual like” and failed major. Kinda like bald men with comb overs, it makes them look MORE bald rather than less.
How long was he fondling the gun? Was it a “hand rest” or did he reach up every few minutes to adjust the thing? If he was new to OC (obviously) and even CCW, the extra weight of the gun and the holster would take some getting used to. So he adjusts a lot …
On the other hand he may have only “held” the gun when other people are within arms reach.
So he was “eyeballing” folks, was he? Was he giving them the evil eye like a Rambo type wannabe tough or was he afraid and looking around a lot?
Most people when they concealed carry for the first time think the gun must be bulging out and plain as day to everyone, so there is a bit of looking over the shoulder going on. I wonder if this guy was just really self conscious about people looking at him, so he starts looking around a lot thus causing MORE people to look at him, rinse repeat….
The real question is why was he standing around for “10 to 15 minutes”?
However, if any of us good people here where waiting for someone or something, and someone walks by and stares at us, I think most of us would stare back. Maybe a little too intently…