Serpa issue
I was perusing some various training sights and ran across this bit at Tactical Response on why they do not allow Blackhawk’s Serpa Holster:
While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw stroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.
I’ve used a Serpa at a training class and occasionally carry one. I don’t know that that is all that likely. And, yes, it’s the same Tactical Response who put a photographer down range while people were shooting.
September 14th, 2010 at 9:28 am
There have been more than enough incidents.
Here’s a story of two people shooting themselves regarding their holster, one was a SERPA
http://www.krtraining.com/Newsletters/July2009news.html
And if shooting yourself isn’t a problem, how about an inability to draw your gun? This comes from Tom Givens of Rangemaster:
http://www.krtraining.com/Newsletters/December2009news.html
Brigid had a failure to draw as well.
http://mausersandmuffins.blogspot.com/2009/09/trust-issues.html
read the comments on Brigid’s post and one person mentions a little rock getting wedged in and then he couldn’t unlock.
Granted, these aren’t overwhelming evidence, but when did a Milt Sparks or a Comp-Tac fail like that? You start adding in more moving parts, more fancy things, and that means it’s more things to break and go wrong. Keep It Simple, Stupid.
September 14th, 2010 at 10:27 am
For the most part, the portion of the lock that needs to be depressed is higher than the trigger, and actually indexes your finger on the frame, not the trigger.
My usual problem is switching from the Raven holster for my Sig to the Serpa for my 1911 and forgetting to push the button… to the Serpa’s credit I have yet to yank the holster out of my pants doing this (I use the paddle attachment.)
September 14th, 2010 at 10:27 am
I know very few professional trainers that use them or allow them to be used in their classes.
September 14th, 2010 at 10:41 am
I’m not personally a huge fan of the Serpa lock, but since when is Yeager all concerned about safety? 😉
September 14th, 2010 at 11:11 am
The Serpa is an inappropriate holster for armed citizen concealed carry.
(1) It’s bulky and hard to conceal compared to an IWB style holster.
(2) The draw stroke requires additional steps, which take additional time and add unnecessary complexity. Fine motor skills deteriorate under stress.
(3) I can’t find any instance of an incident in which an armed citizen had a concealed handgun taken out of a holster by an attacker and used against them, thus the idea that armed citizens really need a retention holster for concealed carry is ridiculous. It’s more likely that an armed citizen will be too slow or have a fouled draw as a result of the Serpa drawstroke than that the armed citizen will need the retention feature.
(4) There have been more reported instances of self-inflicted GSWs involving users of this holster than any other holster I’ve ever heard of.
(5) Tom Givens (Rangemaster school) had an incident occur in one of his classes teaching one handed gun manipulation, where the user put the gun in the holster backward, to do a one handed reload, and the gun stuck in the holster so securely that the holster had to be disassembled in order to get the gun out. The odds that an armed citizen will be injured and need to do a one-handed reload in a fight are higher than the odds that an armed citizen will need the retention feature of the Serpa.
(6) I’m unaware of any national level trainer that uses one or recommends one for armed citizen carry. Many have banned this holster from use in classes. In the opinion battle between professional trainers and random internet posters, I side with professional trainers.
The popularity of this holster appears to be another example of people not understanding enough about the topic of holster selection to choose wisely. Instead they go for cheapest/most “tactical”/looks cool/biggest magazine ad.
September 14th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Tactical Response?
Sorry, I’ve shunted them to the “don’t care” bucket.
That’s James Yeager’s outfit.
His in-the-field record is less than stellar.
Google him up. Not good.
BTW – I don’t own, nor do I use a Serpa holster. I’m a Blade Tech IWB guy.
September 14th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I’ve got a SERPA, and for the life of me I can’t see how you’ll get an AD unless you’re rushing the gun back into the holster…which I don’t get why people do, as their aren’t any points for having the gun back in the holster first.
Much ado about bullshit.
September 14th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
I’ve used serpa holsters for owb carry for years, but I hardly ever carry that way. Mostly they get used for handgun or carbine classes. A few times i’ve about pulled the entire holster out of my pants when trying to draw at the range. Because of that I’ll be getting a new owb kydex holster without the fancy lock.
Still, if it were the end of the world and we were walking around like Max Rockatansky then I might use one just to make sure my secondary stayed with me while I run and gun the zombies with my carbine. Except for that, I think my serpas are going to get retired.
September 14th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Interesting stuff. I use a SERPA for matches and it seems to me that I’d have to really work at it to have an ND. If anything, it seems harder to have an ND with the SERPA than with other holsters I’ve used.
I would never use it for concealed carry; like Mr. Rehn says above it’s hard to conceal and I’d be more likely (even after all the live-fire draws I’ve done with this holster) to foul the draw than to need retention in a concealed holster.
September 14th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
A local gun dealer (otherwise highly reputable) here in Northern VA actually cautioned me against my Serpa for that very same reason. Personally, I don’t buy it, but I guess it could happen. Maybe.
September 14th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Army uses em almost exclusively. Carried one while I was in country and never had one problem. Secure as you could want and super fast on presentation. Never heard of anyone else having a problem either. Now you might think that a soldier using it and an armed citizen using it would be two different things and you would be right. An armed citizen usually has much more training and experience with pistols than your average infantryman.
September 14th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Suarez is not a fan of them either, apparently. He used to ban them, after seeing a couple problems in his coures, but so many of his students use them that if I understand correctly, he makes them sign a waiver that that if they ND with one, they will be liable for the results.
I can’t see that teaching the trigger finger to do two different tasks is a good idea.
September 14th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
This Kydex paddle holster video is pretty funny! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ
September 15th, 2010 at 11:09 am
Mr. Rehn,
I’d say a lot of that depends on the “professional trainer” and the “random poster” in question, seeing as how any pogue with a berm, a shirt with epaulets, and a technique they’ve named after themselves is using the appellation these days.
September 15th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
I have a SERPA. It wasn’t my first choice, but I prefer some form of retention since I open carry. My prefered holster is a Don Hume (the H726), but that wasn’t acceptable for IDPA matches, so I decided to find a retention holster for everyday use that would also be allowable in IDPA.
It is actually very easy to have your finger go straight to the trigger if you press with the tip of your finger instead of the pad. The issue is that pressing with your tip also angles your finger towards the bottom of the gun just enough to change the path of travel of your finger.
Overall, I like my SERPA holster. But pretending it doesn’t have weaknesses just increases the chance of you getting burned by it.
September 16th, 2010 at 9:56 am
This happened recently at a match in Raleigh, N.C., the shooter drew his weapon at the buzzer, and shot himself in the leg. It was determined that he pressed in the button as he was pulling up and followed through to the trigger.
Not saying that it isn’t a good holster, just that it has a potential for an ND and users need to understand their equipment.