1911s are good business
“1911s are the perfect storm. They are expensive and need a lot of gun smithing to sort out their bugs.” He continued, “The design is a hundred years old, we learned a lot in that hundred years. The mag design alone is awful. Even Jeff Cooper would bitch about their capacity and reliability now. What the F&%k, it’s been a hundred years.”
January 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Blasphemy! Burn him!
January 12th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Which is why I switched to Glocks years ago.
I have a half-dozen 1911 models, Colt, Kimber, even a Gunsite Special….and they’re all finicky, only liking certain magazines and certain loads.
Glocks? Shoot everything, every time.
January 12th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Oh, please. The 1911 was designed to be an open carry piece that shot ball ammo. I’ve owned several that never saw a gun smith and even shot factory hollow points without a failure. Carry and shoot it like it is supposed to be carried and shot and the complaints listed by the 1911 haters vanish.
So Glocks shoot everything all the time? Yeah, just google “Glock kaBoom” and take a peek. I’ve personally seen two Glocks have catastrophic failures because of manufacture/design fault, not to mention the legion of fail to feeds. Not saying Glocks aren’t the answer for those that like them, but that every design can be shown to be a clusterf#ck when anecdotally attacked.
Personally, I intend to NEVER carry a Glock or other striker fired device. BUT THAT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE.
Shoot what you carry, carry what you shoot. It would be nice if all sides would quit attacking what they don’t personally like.
January 12th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
It’s a single stack mag, how they hell is that awful? Especially in .45 when double stacks turn the grips into ungainly bricks?
January 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
No gun is perfect. I’ve rarely had issues with even WW1 era 1911s. I have about as much trouble with other types of guns. They all have their foibles. Just some people like there variety better.
I also doubt Jeff Cooper would complain about the capacity. Especially considering his writings on scout rifles. I’m betting he’d say something about doing it right the first time.
Don’t like the 1911, buy something else. Expect perfection from anything and you’re going to be disappointed at some point. (Especially if you don’t learn your weapon and do the maintenance.)
January 12th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
GLOCK!
January 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Reliability? My beat-up Colt 1911, bought second-hand in 1990, functioned perfectly w/ everything from WWII ball to Hydra-Shoks for twenty years. Your mileage may vary, of course. With some work on extractor and sights, I’m confident it will work just as well in future.
As of ’11, I carry an XD .45. The grip width feels pretty much the same to me as the 1911 — double stack mag, yes, but no grip panels to add width. In recoil, it feels more comfortable than a Glock 17.
As others have noted, shoot what works for you, & lay off the “mine is better than yours” nonsense.
January 12th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
I have and carry both pistols, depending on my mood or need (right now my main carry is a Colt Government Model .380, a mini-1911).
Glocks can misfire. My Sheriff’s Office started with S&W 39s when they optioned a semi-auto instead of a revolver. The S&Ws did not misfire (I never opted, stayed with my Ruger Security Sixes, 4″ for Duty and 2.5″ for off-duty or undercover).
When we went to semi-autos as mandatory, Glocks were encouraged (and cheaper for the Deputies to by than either Sig or H&K, the other choices), all of a sudden, we had to have a HUGE amount of training in clearing malfunctions. No one should carry a Glock without doing drills in malfunction clearing, and doing them EVERY range trip.
JMB’s design can be limp-wristed and it will still function, but Glocks will stop almost every time from limp-wristing.
I’m still a Glock fan, but I realize that the weapon has to be held and fired properly to give good service. One can be a bit more casual with a 1911.
Bottom line though, if you have frequent stoppage problems with semi-autos, you should learn, buy and carry REVOLVERS.
January 12th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
I also doubt that Jeff Cooper would have any complaints about the 1911’s magazine capacity. As I recall he was a very vocal critic of “spray and pray” shooting.
Here are his actual words: “There has never been much question about it, and it is indisputable after decades of observation that the single-action self-loading pistol – the Colt 1911 and its clones – is the easiest, heavy-duty sidearm with which to hit. The crunchenticker is the most difficult, and the Glock is somewhere in the middle. Shooting a Glock is simply shooting a single-action self-loader with no safety and a very poor trigger. If real excellence is not the objective, this is a satisfactory system to employ.”
January 12th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Leave the tolerances a little loose and stick to 7 round mags with a dimple in the follower, just as John Moses intended and 1911s are just as reliable as any other weapon. At least that’s my conclusion after 5 years of tinkering with mine. Tighter is not better and that extra round will cause you headaches to no end….
January 12th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
I shoot two 1911’s, a Colt compact 1991 A1 and a full-size Springfield. The compact eats up any ammo i put in it. the Springfield is a bit finicky, but experimenting with differnt factory ammo as well as reloads has also improved reliability to the point of being a non-issue.
the fact that the design has been around for over 100 years and people are still willing to pay over $1000 for one kinda negates the “1911’s are crap” argument.
It boils down to preference. Arguing Glock vs. 1911 amounts to nothing more than arguing Ted Williams vs. Joe Dimaggio. No matter how great they both were,they both struck out their fair share of times as well as hitting plenty over the fence.
January 12th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
To those who dont like the tried and trusty 1911 because it’s “old”! Dont buy one. Problem solved!
My dad has a M1911A1 that he aquired in New Guinea in 1944 when he was in the 11th Airborne Division that he carried there and in the Leyte and Luzon campaigns. It still shoots great with no problems AND STILL HAS ALL OF THE ORIGINAL PARTS. True, some of the parts have noticable wear but nothing that causes malfunctions. Too bad I wont be around to see if a Glock is functioning as reliably after over 66 years and 3 wartime campaigns.
January 12th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
I love 1911’s though the tend to cost a lot up front. Glocks redeeming value is that it comes in a reasonably priced 10mm. If steyr started making a pistol in 10mm I would drop the glock in a heartbeat. Steyrs are good because you cannot limp wrist them and not have gun pointing over the horizon. You have to hold very deliberately. May even get a .40 though I hate that caliber….
January 12th, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Coincidence, do you think, that the Constitution was recently rejected by a major commentator on the same grounds?
January 12th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
I like 1911s. I also like other designs.
I do not, however, see any truth at all to 1911s requiring “lots of work to function” or being “expensive”.
My god damn Norinco worked out of the box and continues to work.
Yes, lacking the right “modern” feed ramp it’s not so good with radical hollowpoints.
Know what? I don’t give a damn.
Never seen particular magazine issues with the 1911, and I’d love to know exactly what his criticism is.
Is it just that with the 1911 being so venerable there’s been lots of time for low quality knockoff magazines and worn out second-hand ones to pile up?
Or is there some actual design issue I’ve just never managed to encounter? (And I’ve also run in to terrible third-party magazines for non-1911 pistols. Almost like “anyone can make a bad magazine” or something…)
January 12th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Sigi, say what you will about Norinco, the chinese didn’t decide they knew more about the design than JMB, they didn’t make any tweaks to reduce manufacturing costs or cater to the custom crowd.
I’ve had nary a hiccup with my Remington Rand, my norinco, my sistema 27 or my SA GI – none of which had ever seen a gunsmith.
January 12th, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Mine must be broken. It cost me no more than any other pistol of equal quality, and has never malfunctioned for any reason other than the time I was limp-wristing the thing.
January 12th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Yeah, I guess the solution is to get a cheap sleazy one. My Llama is all kinds of sloppy compared to the Para (which is only very similar to a 1911). Not like I have a million rounds through it, but it’s taken every random mag and loaded every bullet I’ve tried. I just can’t fire it reliably left-handed because my finger hits the slide lock on recoil. Bang bang bang empty? Already? No? Crap.
January 12th, 2011 at 8:09 pm
“I’ve personally seen two Glocks have catastrophic failures because of manufacture/design fault”
Are you sure that the use of home-reloaded ammo was not a factor? The kabooms that I have seen mentioned reloads.
“not to mention the legion of fail to feeds.”
False. I documented the reliability of Glocks and 1911s here:
http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/2010/12/28/quality-1911-glock-taurus/
The numbers do not lie.
January 12th, 2011 at 8:14 pm
“Glocks can misfire…When we went to semi-autos as mandatory, Glocks were encouraged (and cheaper for the Deputies to by than either Sig or H&K, the other choices), all of a sudden, we had to have a HUGE amount of training in clearing malfunctions. No one should carry a Glock without doing drills in malfunction clearing, and doing them EVERY range trip.”
What do you mean by “misfire”? And, do you have any documentation?
I mean, I documented the reliability of Glocks in actual reviews and there was no mention of any “misfire” issue:
http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/2010/12/28/quality-1911-glock-taurus/
January 12th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
“the fact that the design has been around for over 100 years and people are still willing to pay over $1000 for one kinda negates the “1911’s are crap” argument.”
Or perhaps the 1911 was oversold because it is a cash-cow for the manufacturing & gunsmithing firms.
January 12th, 2011 at 9:42 pm
Steve in TN @ 3:
Wash yo mouth out wit soap! What are you tryin’ to do to the intertubes?
January 13th, 2011 at 5:18 am
Mr Evilwrench:
The problem you describe (contact with the slide lever) is due to shooting it like a double action handgun. You are using the knuckle crease to engage the trigger. This is wrong. You must use the pad (halfway between that crease and the tip) of your trigger finger. Once you learn to do this, the problem will go away. This will also give you better trigger feel. (i’m a lefty also)
January 13th, 2011 at 10:43 am
“Or perhaps the 1911 was oversold because it is a cash-cow for the manufacturing & gunsmithing firms.”
Possibly, but Distributors can only put them on the shelves. Individuals still have to open their wallets and shell out the money for them. Which they appear to be doing.
And I don’t see why the 1911 being a cash-cow for gunsmithing firms is a negative. One of the reasons I bought my Springfield is BECASUE of all the different modifications the average gun owner with a little bit of basic gunsmithing knowledge can make to a 1911. Isn’t that what gunnies do?
January 13th, 2011 at 11:03 am
On the one hand, I am glad to see that the gun industry and especially gunsmiths have a steady stream of income to keep them afloat.
And I am the last guy to point fingers at people for spending way too much time & money on problematic products.
But I see both sides of the 1911 argument, and can make my choices accordingly. Too many people refuse to acknowledge the problems with 1911s, and other shooters (often novices) get convinced to buy a 1911 that is too expensive and too problematic for their needs.
January 13th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
LOL at all this. I can’t understand why people invest so much into their brand choices (apple vs. IBM, 1911 vs. Glock, etc) when it all boils down to personal choice.
I like 1911s because I prefer my semi-auto to be single-action — if I want a DA handgun, I’ll use a revolver. Over the years — and I’ve fired more different kinds of handguns than most people, I think — I’ve found that the full-size 1911 suits my hand, grip and shooting style better than any other.
YMMV.
As for mags: I use 8-round Chip McCormicks in my 1911 simply because at the time, Springfield magazines sucked (quality of metal, springs and forming was terrible). Now, I’m told, they’re better. If I’m doing pistol drills like IDPA, I’ll use a 10-round Chip mag.
I don’t care about mag capacity, because I’ve trained an awful lot to make my first and second shots count, and statistically, that’s about all I’ll need to resolve the thing, one way or the other — so the remaining five rounds are just insurance, in case there are TWO others who need shooting. Once again, it may be fun to imagine zombie hordes and the Chinese Army coming at you, but that’s not what happens in real life.
ALL THAT SAID: If you want to use a Glock with a 15-round mag, be my guest. Glocks are reliable, easy to use and accurate — what’s to argue with? I have a prblem with 9mm Europellets, but that’s just because I’ve personally seen people shot with 9mm Para — especially FMJ.
But The Mrs. uses a Browning HP 9mm pistol (although it IS loaded with Hydra-Shoks and not FMJ), because she has recoil issues with any caliber more substantial. She uses 10-round mags, because that’s what came with the gun.
I have no idea how many rounds she’s put through her BHP without a single malfunction, ever — well over 5,000 would be my guess — and I’ve put nearly 30,000 through my Spingfield 1911, with only a slide-stop breakage at about 26,000. Draw your own conclusions.
Sure, I have my preferences. But if all I could get was a Glock, I’d feel perfectly comfortable with it, and with almost every other modern handgun except maybe the really large-frame ones (I have short-ish fingers).
But that’s about it. I don’t care what people use, as long as they’re comfortable with its feel and proficient in its use.
All the rest is just marketing.
January 15th, 2011 at 3:18 am
You guys need to pick up a Rock Island Armory 1911. I’ve had 100 percent luck with winchestor white box with pro mags. And they work pretty solid for a 450 dollar gun.