Saiga Update
From Coal Creek Armory on facebook:
We are hearing that the importer of the Saiga 12 shotguns has ceased importation while waiting for the official ruling by the ATF. There are a limited number of these firearms already in the pipeline for distribution and we will be getting as many as available to us just as soon as they are available. Call now – 865-966-4545 – if you would like to be put on the list.
I never really wanted a Saiga. Until now.
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:33 pm
OK I’m confused. Even if the ATF moved forward with their plan (right now they’re merely considering it) wouldn’t a bog stock Saiga 12, as imported, still meet the reqs?
IIRC, the Saiga 12 hasn’t been actively produced in a while now, and maybe the pipeline is running dry.
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Russian American Armory lost the contract to import Saigas back in the fall. Izhmash is setting up their own US based import operation in Florida currently.
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Wait, box mag is ONE evil feature and that’s all it takes to ban importation. Sorry, yeah it looks like the S12 would be “eeevil” if the new regs are implemented.
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Exodus,
The list of features in the ATF report is:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.
Unless I missed something, I don’t see box magazine as being one of the features, as long as it holds 5 rounds or less (maybe 4+1 chamber??).
February 3rd, 2011 at 1:58 pm
And so are they saying those ‘features’ above have caused crime? Didn’t know rails did that, or lights, or excessive weight???? So bulky guns are bad?
This list is just BS and has nothing to do with stopping crime (but we know that!) Once the Saiga is made in the U.S. it will have any and all of these features. So it’s just ATF being stuck on stupid.
February 3rd, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Kinda like what happened to the AR15….the assault weapons ban started, and then everybody wanted one.
February 3rd, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Examine the investment portfolios of the principals behind the ruling, hmm?
February 3rd, 2011 at 2:32 pm
There is no reason whatsoever to cease importing now. ATF hasn’t taken any action and any action they would take wouldn’t affect a distributor or importer. EVEN if you accept that there would be impact, there won’t be any action until after 1 May, 2011.
Smells like profiteering.
February 3rd, 2011 at 3:24 pm
DaveY, What if there is a total ban. No retailer wants to spend money on unsellable goods.
February 3rd, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Paul: No, they’re saying those features are not suitable for a “sporting purpose”, which is there in the law from 1968.
Bobby: A total ban isn’t even being considered, as far as anyone knows – and was just as possible (unlikely in the extreme) five years ago as today.
Me, I think that the worst this means is that someone will just start making AK-pattern shotguns in the US – then there’s no import hoops at all.
And that people should push for amendments or selective repeal of the Gun Control Act.
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:04 pm
The “Sporting Purpose” language of the 1968 law is entirely too vague and that SHOULD be enough to invalidate it. However, as we all know, what SHOULD be and what is are two creatures that rarely meet.
s
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:06 pm
Crap, I saw “removeable magazines” in the Outdoor Wire report from Jim Shepherd.
Now I have to RTWT from ATF as punishment. Dang it.
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Dead Gummit! I wish they would stop saying poop like this before a gun show weekend. I bravely passed on an S12 last time after the Shot Show scare. I don’t know if I can do that this time.
Ugly. Doesn’t fit me. Heavy. Not a Shotgun person. But dang it… Now I want one!
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Form 6s were being held up as early as November ’10.
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:39 pm
If Izhmash is smart they will find a way to “make” S-12s in the US.
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Saiga 12s are garbage, anyways. All the quality of an AKM pattern receiver without any of the reliability. I’ve seen three of them, up close and personal, and none of them could feed and function through two full magazines (one of them couldn’t get through one). The one guy I know who owns one, now, spends more time trying to “fix” the thing than shooting it.
February 3rd, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Can anyone clarify if we are talking about the importation of S-12s, or all Saiga shotguns, or all Saigas (Shotguns & Rifles)???
February 3rd, 2011 at 5:49 pm
I believe it would be all Saiga shotguns except the .410s since the “Sporting Purpose” rule in question has to do with shotguns with a bore of over a half inch.
s
February 3rd, 2011 at 6:02 pm
I’ve got a Saiga .308 rifle. It would seem that it is a much better weapon than the Saiga shotgun. Of course, it can be used for “sporting purposes” like target practice I suppose, but I have it for use as a counter-assault rifle, that is, to counter the crime or the tactic of assault. The “sporting purpose” of target practice would be to enhance the primary reason for having the rifle.
February 3rd, 2011 at 7:06 pm
There are a lot of what the Saiga-12 forum calls “Vodka Specials” out there, with poor QC etc. It’s a lot like buying a 1911, the first thing you do is send it to a gunsmith to work on it and make it work reliably. Though in most cases this also includes reworking it out if the “sporting” configuration.
But yeah, I have a few more on the way.
February 3rd, 2011 at 7:24 pm
*sigh* It sucks that my budget makes me choose between “what I want” and “what they are going to ban/restrict/regulate/etc.”
The latter should never be a concern…
February 3rd, 2011 at 7:57 pm
If ATF had any juice they’d just ask State to withhold approval to import. Form 6 denials can be appealed. State Department refusals can’t (unless you’re buds with Hillary or Barack). Just one of the reasons I have respect for importers but think they’re crazy – ATF is actually the most reasonable agency they deal with.
February 4th, 2011 at 4:51 am
I for one, have wanted a semi-auto evil black 12 gauge for quite some time.
February 4th, 2011 at 10:48 am
The Second Amendment supersedes; the Gun Control Act of ’68 is unconstitutional in that it denies Americans access to firearms that are consistent with the Second Amendment.
February 4th, 2011 at 11:17 am
Chas I believe that to be exactly the case myself.
February 4th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
It’s not us you have to convince, it’s the federal court system. Good luck with that.
February 5th, 2011 at 7:36 am
I always wanted a Saiga, since I first heard that they existed. With a coupla drum magazines. Eff the nonsense about the Zombie Threat, it’s the live humans who are dangerous.