Credit
On the facebook, someone I know from high school did a post that went roughly like this: God is so awesome. The surgeon got so-and-so breathing again.
No offense, but what about the surgeon?
Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.
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November 2nd, 2011 at 12:54 pm
The surgeon:
1. was born
2. was trained in medicine
3. was able to use that training at the right time while being in the right place
A million things could’ve happened to prevent any of those conditions, and if so, the relative might be dead now. Your friend chooses to ascribe the way being clear to God.
It’s like when a running back runs the ball in from the one yard line: it’s usually the offensive line that deserves the real credit.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:00 pm
The logic to bring to bear here is simple. If people wish to attribute all human endeavor to a creator who made it all possible, then that is perfectly reasonable, given their assumption. But you will notice that they do not then also blame that same creator for all the less savory human endeavors. Their god only helps surgeons save lives, he doesn’t help murderers and genocidal dictators, by their birth, education, physical abilities, and so on. If a surgeon is “blessed” with the intellect and physical steadiness to perform his duties, then so too is the mugger, the thief, and the rapist. One cannot assume god’s responsibility for only one half of human achievement.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 pm
The Christian worldview is largely:
– God made the world good.
– Man screwed it up by sinning.
– God is in the process of making the world new through Jesus.
So praising God for the good (the surgeon) for fixing the bad that sin caused (whatever caused the surgery) makes prefect sense if that is your worldview.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Ah, let’s bash the heartland folks. That’ll work.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Who is bashing someone?
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:15 pm
A tiny bit of credit where credit is due would be nice sometimes. Since they skipped him and went straight to *deity*, I’ll fill in.
Awesome job Dr. Surgeon! Thanks for doing what you do!
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Hey Jamie, thanks for painting us all with the same brush. Would you like to lump us in with those WBC jerks too?
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:17 pm
“But you will notice that they do not then also blame that same creator for all the less savory human endeavors.”
I find that most Christians do just that. God only brings good into their lives, and they get pissed at him when something “bad” happens. We can’t see one measley second into our future, so how is it that we can possibly know what is good or bad?
I’m with what Wolfwood said.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Man if I wanted to read Christian bashing posts, I would be on Facebook right now.
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:25 pm
I’ve had this conversation quite a few times, even to the absurd extreme of having a devoutly religious patient call 911, and then refuse to allow me to treat them, instead choosing to rely on the power of prayer to provide a healing miracle.
Ignoring the fact that their faith in the impending miracle obviously ain’t that strong, or they’d have never called 911, my reply is usually, “God provided the healing miracle you asked for – he made sure the best medic in the city was available to answer your 911 call. Now shaddup and gimme your arm, you’re interfering with God’s plan for you.”
November 2nd, 2011 at 1:29 pm
Again, who is bashing someone?
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:02 pm
The surgeon thinks that when someone says “Thanks be to God” they are talking to him* (not Him).
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
“But you will notice that they do not then also blame that same creator for all the less savory human endeavors.”
Actually, some do.
There’s a lot of variety among the beliefs of Christian denominations. Then just look at how many types of Baptists there are, and even within a single Southern Baptist congregation, not everyone will have the exact same beliefs. Even Roman Catholics, with a single Head of the entire membership, and not everyone agrees completely.
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:11 pm
A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”
The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”
To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”
To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”
To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm
What JD said. If the surgeon is anything like the ones who’ve worked on me and you asked him “Who is God,” he’d just answer “Present.”
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Hey uncle, those snorgtee ads on the sidebar are great. 🙂
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:37 pm
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
What does this mean?–Answer.
God gives daily bread, even without our prayer, to all wicked men; but we pray in this petition that He would lead us to know it, and to receive our daily bread with thanksgiving.
What is meant by daily bread?–Answer.
Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.
****
The great Reformer Martin Luther described it above. God provides all of our daily needs, including our health. But since God doesn’t do rounds at the hospital or drive the tractor on the farm, how does He provide it? Through us…, going about our vocations. We provide for our neighbor by doing our jobs justly and well.
And sorry to tell the surgeon, or the President, or the mighty CEO, that any poor mother wiping diapers is serving the Lord with just as much dignity as they. THAT is the Lutheran understanding of vocation.
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Related: Tom the dancing bug
November 2nd, 2011 at 3:19 pm
@Amberlamps Driver – Excellent response. I would have LOLed.
November 2nd, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Who do you think gave that surgeon his talent?
November 2nd, 2011 at 3:41 pm
#4 in TN: “Work” for what purpose?
Incidentally, the surgeon gets primary credit for the result, quite simply because he chose that path — and likely persevered against many obstacles in doing so. Obstacles which are just as readily blamed on “God” as the things he’s credited for. The surgeon was born? Big deal — all of us were born. The results are up to each of us, not God. Even Christians believe that God merely deals us our hand in life, and that our character follows from how we play it. Else in what sense are we responsible for our sins? Credit and blame must both be able to go to the same places.
Crediting “God” first is an injustice to the surgeon, and that would be so even if there were any such entity.
November 2nd, 2011 at 4:22 pm
If I recall my schooling, God gave man free will. So if num nuts decides to become a mugger and not a surgeon, well that rests firmly on Mr. Mugger.
I will say I missed the class on why God created disease. If you can lend me your notes I would appreciate it.
November 2nd, 2011 at 4:38 pm
No one. He worked for it.
November 2nd, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Wow, you’d think you made a “Glock vs. 1911” post…
November 2nd, 2011 at 6:18 pm
And when the surgeon says, “I have done all I can, it is in God’s hands now,” — what do you to complain about than? Why can’t you just raise your OWN kids without the knowledge of God? Is the need to recruit that strong?
And finally, as if it means anymore than when you used it, “No offense.”
November 2nd, 2011 at 6:45 pm
As my ob/gyn professor told me a story of a really religous lady who was CONVINCED that Jesus would save her. He pleaded with her to get radiation, do chemo, do surgery, anything since it was curable.
His best line he taught me for dealing with this situation was “Ma’am, maybe God has sent me to help you.”
She didn’t make it, delayed too long.
November 2nd, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Just finished SEAL Team Six by Harold Wasdin, he changes carreers and becomes a chriopractor, has a story about a woman that gets killed by a simple ear infection rather than go to a doctor. Darwin…
November 2nd, 2011 at 9:58 pm
November 2nd, 2011 at 10:32 pm
quoted from CTone:
“I find that most Christians do just that. God only brings good into their lives, and they get pissed at him when something “bad” happens. We can’t see one measley second into our future, so how is it that we can possibly know what is good or bad?”
I would say if they said this then obviously they haven’t read their Bible where it says “ALL things work for good for those that love God and are called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28) and also in the book of James where he talks about trials meant to increase their faith and mature them.
God made the world and said it was good. We’re the ones that screwed it up.
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:35 am
This discussion hinges around your presupposition of being a Christian (saved by Christ’s saving work) or not. SayUncle (which, by the way, great blog/website you have) if you ask me, as a Christian, I believe strongly that God gave the surgeon his skill. I believe that though the surgeon could never have been born at all (or he could lack th intellect or any number of scenarios which would keep him from having the ability to be a skilled surgeon), he was born with skills and in a setting where God could bless his unique intellect and talent so he could become a surgeon. I think it’s completely fair and reasonable to thank God for the surgeon’s work – and I think thanking the surgeon is certainly logical as well.
If a non-Christian or someone who believes in some far off deity kicking it on a cloud watching the world (with no power or involvement) it would be rational to just praise the surgeon.
So in my opinion (keeping in mind I am a Christian), thanks to God for the outcome of the surgery ( as I believe God is sovereign over all things) and for blessing the surgeon’s hands and also thank you Mr. Surgeon for pursuing your calling and developing the your skills to save others.
November 3rd, 2011 at 9:05 am
@17, I’ve no particular dog in this fight (it’s how God made me), but you left out “This is most certainly true.”
@24, the poor in spirit have always crossed the Almighty with impunity. You don’t do that with Moses. Now you take that back or you’re gonna find out where Liege is. Atheist. (Internet spelling: Athiest)
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:30 am
Some people are so insecure about their faith that anyone who isn’t just as religious as they are is implicitly bashing their beliefs.
November 3rd, 2011 at 10:40 am
Isn’t this essentially same premise socialists make? That no one is really responsibile for their own success, they just lucked out to be given opportunities by [God/society] that other people were denied and the have no real individual claim to the results, but that it really all belongs to [God/society].
November 3rd, 2011 at 11:52 am
Speaking as a surgeon, I can testify that at times I do feel as if He is acting through me. I’m not your typical arrogant surgeon but I do have a high but reasonable opinion of my abilities. Surgery has a way of keeping you humble (at least it does so for me). Sometimes when I have done my best, things don’t go well. Other times, I’m convinced things will go poorly and despite this, things turn out just fine. Is this random or does G-d have a hand in this? I do not know the answer.
November 3rd, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Same argument as a socialist? Oh boy. Not at all. To attribute your gifts to God is reasonable – to do nothing and blame God for a lack of faculties (or to claim that we are all entitled to the same thing) is not. I don’t even follow the logic of how humbly giving God glory is the same theory as socialism.
I believe that we are given our abilities, gifts, and situations – so let us make the very most of them and work diligently.