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12 Responses to “Reasonable suspicion of crime”

1. chris Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 10:53 am

   It creates a reasonable suspicion of brains and personal responsibility.

2. mikee Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 11:43 am

   Limiting the impact of Heller and McDonald is going to be a race between judges and police, versus folks like Alan Gura. I know who has the better legal and historical arguments but this could be quite a long, drawn out legal battle.

   Some guidance from the legislative branch of the federal government would help, but I won’t hold my breath.

3. Jake Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 12:03 pm

   Remember, in most states carrying a concealed weapon is a crime, and a CCW license creates an exception. As I commented there:

   I think I can see at least part of where the court is coming from here. The conclusion requires three specific premises/assumptions.

   1) Under the state law, the default is that CCW is a crime, and licensed CCW is a narrow and specific exemption to the law. Thus, there is reasonable suspicion that anyone carrying concealed is involved in a criminal activity (CCW) until the person’s exemption (CCW license) is confirmed.

   2) With that reasonable suspicion, a Terry stop (rather than simply asking for a person’s CCW license as otherwise allowed by statute) is legally justified.

   3) If there is reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, and that person is known to be armed, it is reasonable to assume that the person is also dangerous. Thus giving “reasonable articulable suspicion” for a “stop and frisk” under Terry.

   If CCW is the only crime suspected, then #3 is likely a very shaky assumption – though the lack of a proper holster may give that assumption some additional support. I think this is a point that can easily and most appropriately be fixed with legislative action, by simply amending the statute to specify that if CCW is the only indication of criminal activity an officer cannot confiscate the weapon or “stop and frisk” before verifying that the person is licensed.

   Of course, this could not happen in a Constitutional Carry state, and (as a matter of personal opinion) I think that would be the best possible solution.

   In the currently existing framework of legal interpretation, I think it’s a matter better handled by the legislature than the courts. In a properly Constitutional framework there wouldn’t even be a question that it was an illegal seizure.

   Guess which option I prefer.

4. John Smith. Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 12:35 pm

   I am kind of curious to how the weapon could be concealed and the yet officer saw it immediately…

5. Texas Jack 1940 Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 3:26 pm

   The man was bent over and his shirt rode up exposing his weapon (as stated in the original article). Currently, that in itself is a crime in Texas. A Concealed Handgun Licence (CHL) is good for a concealed weapon only. That’s why we are pushing so hard for open carry.
   One other point: if I am stopped and asked for identification, I must present my CHL along with my ID if I am carrying. Failure to do so, if discovered, can result in the loss of my CHL.

6. divemedic Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 4:38 pm

   SO if seeing a weapon constitutes reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, and only the possession of a permit excuses you, thus allowing the police to detain and search you, does this mean that operating a motor vehicle creates reasonable suspicion, and producing a license AFTER the search and detention allows you to escape arrest? This is what the decision says.

7. Lyle Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 5:48 pm

   Seeing a concealed Bible is therefore reason to suspect a crime, as is seeing a concealed printer (never mind the logic issue with “seeing” something that is “concealed”).

   Anyone sneaky enough to exercise a constitutionally protected right MUST be up to something. GET EM!

   Stop the insanity. Advocate liberty.

8. Seerak Says:
   December 29th, 2011 at 7:53 pm

   The man was bent over and his shirt rode up exposing his weapon (as stated in the original article). Currently, that in itself is a crime in Texas.

   IIRC, Florida is the same way. It’s sad that two of the biggest “poster states” for guns have this land mine ready to blow up CCW’ers. I definitely wish you luck getting that fixed TJ1940.

   At least here in Nevada, “riding up” isn’t a crime. (Unless you do it in a Las Vegas Costco, then it’s a capital offense.)

9. Bryan S. Says:
   December 30th, 2011 at 1:30 am

   On Jake’s comment,

   I believe it is that way here in PA, however, that law that makes it illegal would run afoul of section 21 of the PA Constitution, “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned”.

10. Bryan S. Says:
    December 30th, 2011 at 1:32 am

    And also, I see the police have a gun, should I expect a crime is being committed and call the authorities?

    (In that case, who would that be?)

11. Jake Says:
    December 30th, 2011 at 10:00 am

    @ divemedic: There’s a difference between driving and CCW that’s significant from a legal perspective. CCW is, by default, illegal, with an exemption for those licensed by the state. Driving is not illegal by default, but the state has added the restriction that a license is required. Thus, the ‘justification’ for reasonable suspicion that someone carrying concealed is breaking the law, while there is no reasonable suspicion that someone driving is breaking the law.

    In practice, it’s not a difference at all, since you have to have a license from the state to do either. Even legally, it really only becomes significant when debating issues like this.

    In reality, it shows just how stupid the law can be sometimes. It’s one of those things that makes me think the whole system – statute and precedent – should be completely wiped out and restarted from scratch every 50 years or so.

12. kwikrnu Says:
    December 30th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    The man was on private property where concealed carry is lawful. There was no reasonable suspicion of a crime and the detention/search was illegal.

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