Bleg: Steel targets
From reading around, it seems that if you want steel targets to handle an AR-15, you should get AR500 steel that is 3/8″ thick. Here’s a silhouette I found. And here’s a gong.
So, the questions is, using regular (i.e., not frangible) ammo, what are safe distances one should be from the target to avoid ricochets and putting holes in things you’d rather not have holes in for the following calibers:
22LR
9mm
45ACP
5.56
300BLK
Anyone have guidance? Thanks.
June 12th, 2014 at 1:32 pm
.22s should be safe at ~7 yards, 9mm and .45 at about 10, and depending on the angle of the target the rifle rounds should be safe around 15-20ish. MGM sells a target specifically for rifles that is angled aggressively to make it safer to shoot at close range.
June 12th, 2014 at 1:56 pm
My 3/8″ AR500s (12″X24″ silhoutte) are just fine close in because the stand hangs the target at a user variable angle for just that.
I’ve shot mine from 5-7 yds with 9, 40 & 45 & 5.56.
Lead SWC, FMJ, JHP, DPX are no big deal because I can angle the rounds down into the sand.
Velocity is what damages steel targets. 25 yds with 5.56 55gr will leave a divot that needs to be addressed. At 100 yds they don’t do anything.
Send me an email if you want the contact info for the guy who made them or pics.
June 12th, 2014 at 1:58 pm
correction – didn’t 5.56 that target @ 5 yds, just with the handguns.
June 12th, 2014 at 1:59 pm
http://mgmtargets.com/faqs#howClose
http://mgmtargets.com/faqs#rifle
The start out by strongly suggesting that you never shoot pistols (or anything else) at closer than 15 yards due to backsplash, and rifles at not less than 150 to 200 unless you like buying new targets.
June 12th, 2014 at 3:38 pm
Well I have a 12″ and 6″ AR500 gong both 3/8″ thick. I have used it with .22lr and pretty much any common handgun caliber you can think of at 10 yards. Any closer have it slanted at an extreme angle down of around 20 degrees. Rifle rounds I usually set it out beyond 25 yards at the closest.
The problem is at even 100 yards with 5.56 and other smaller bullets that travel at or around 3000 FPS it will still divot the target. My big one is full of such dings.
June 12th, 2014 at 3:58 pm
http://www.actiontarget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/pt_Steel_Target_Resource_Guide.pdf
Their short answer: 10 yards for pistol calibers, 100 yards minimum for rifle calibers and shotgun slugs.
June 12th, 2014 at 4:56 pm
What Shawn said. I have *some* experience with this. Impact velocity is the main factor, methinks. Even a 30 Carbine will begin to divot AR500 steel at close range, but it is not serious. Common rifle velocities are torture on the steel, so the targets would have to be way out there. 300 to 400 yards if you want to keep the steel near pristine. Closer of you can tolerate some divots. That’s going by what I was TOLD was AR500, and my own observations with that steel…
Just looking at the 30 carbine as an example of “just beginning to divot at close range”; that’s around 2,000 fps at impact, or a bit less (maybe 1800 to 1900 – depends on the load). You can be fairly confident then, that a target velocity significantly under 2000 is going to be OK for the most part, and so you can use your ballistic calculator for any round in question (you just need the BC and the launch speed) to determine the distance required to get down to 2000 or below at impact. Common pistol rounds then, won’t touch it, and your targets will last for years and years.
Also it depends on the application of the target. If they’re **never** going to be used at close range, then some fairly deep divots would be acceptable. Fine. Consider the steel as a wear part and don’t worry about a few craters. If ever used at close range, as in the typical pistol shooting, and you hit a deep divot, it WILL splash back at you and draw blood. My brother hit a crater in a steel popper at about 7 yards once with a pistol and he went right down to the ground, bleeding from multiple, small, superficial wounds.
June 12th, 2014 at 4:59 pm
There is no number “safe” distance. It’s angle and ammo/gun. You’re just going to have to try it out and see.
I do have some advice however… Don’t EVER use a plate closer than 100y that’s been welded. Also try to avoid laser cut and find something water cut instead.
June 12th, 2014 at 5:02 pm
I now see both you posted are laser cut… I’d avoid. The edges will go to shit really quickly, makes for great ricochets if you want that I guess.
June 12th, 2014 at 8:13 pm
My experience has been that 22LR and 5.56 will “spatter” on steel at any rational range. 9mm will sometimes, sometimes not. 45ACP Ball ammo bounces worse than any round I’ve ever shot – don’t EVER shoot it at a bowling ball!
5.56 mil spec M193 and especially M855 will leave tiny divots in AR500 3/8″ thick at less than 100 yards, though it isn’t bad until you get within 50 yards. 30-06 AP leaves a hole at 100 yards, btw..:-(
The absolute worst thing to shoot 22LR at is a piece of steel that has craters in it from shooting something too heavy – example, one of those 1/4″ thick “22LR” swinging targets shot with 30 Carbine – 22LR (and, I suspect, other soft lead bullets) will hit the crater and come right back at ya with considerable frequency. Once it has big divots, either discard or move it waaaay out.
June 12th, 2014 at 9:05 pm
The Steel targets I use (3/8″ AR500) hang at about a 20* down angle. These are the same targets we use at the classes I’ve taken. We’ve used both pistol and rifle as close as 10 yards. The steep angle makes everything go down and reflects the energy. We found that as long as you stay away from steel-tipped 5.56 the targets don’t pit.
June 12th, 2014 at 9:18 pm
in 8 years of competition shooting i’ve gotten hit by ricocheting fragments at up to 40-45 yards. USPSA rules say 26 feet if only a fault line separates shooter from target, 23 feet if there’s a barricade or other obstacle. target manufacturers will err on the side of their general counsel and go with longer distances.
when i’m practicing i go for 45 feet but that’s because i’m trying to get better. when i’m setting up matches, I tend to 27-30 feet minimum, 45 feet typically because i’m trying to get our shooters to be better shooters.
our plate rack, 3/8″ ar500, laser cut, was out at 115 yards during the last 3gun match and shrugged off all the .223, 5.56, and .308 we threw at it last weekend without a divot or ding.
June 12th, 2014 at 9:23 pm
USPSA uses 23 feet as a minimum safe distance to steel targets for handgun calibers. I’ve found this to be adequate, although safety glasses are a must. Occasionally one will get a bit of spatter back.
USPSA Rulebook
2.1.3
Minimum Distances
–
Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are
used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them
while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the
competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23 feet minimum distance (see Rul
e 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in
respect of metal props in the line of fire.
I’ve been told the NRA specs a min. safe distance of 200yds for FIXED steel targets(as opposed to swingers or knockdown), but have been unable to find a verifiable source for this.
June 12th, 2014 at 10:09 pm
I designed and built, and have shot a ton at, an AR-500 target and stand out of stuff you can order on Amazon and buy at Home Depot.
Details here:
http://www.backwoodsengineer.com/2014/02/build-steel-gong-target-for-rifle.html
June 13th, 2014 at 8:03 am
Uncle… the gals and I have pretty extensive experience with steel targets here at the home range, at cowboy action shoots, 4H shooting sports, and taking courses at the Tactical Defensive Institute… here are some thoughts…
If you mount your targets vertically and perpendicular to the shooter, you will get a lot of lead “spray” and both lead and copper jacket fragments back at you… nicking your arms and cheeks and any exposed skin…
Our Arntzen Steel targets hang on the Artnzen stands or stand I built at a slight angle back at the bottom and they hang loosely so the “swing” a little and almost all of the lead and copper jacket fragments and shrapnel end up getting deflected to the ground with all .22’s and handgun rounds from as close as five feet away…
When shooting .223 and .308 rounds at our 3/8″ AR500 Arntzen targets we also have no problems when mounted as described above at a a slight angle and hanging loosely from their stands shooting as close as 25 feet, but the AR500 steel does tend to deteriorate with the high speed rifle rounds unless you stay back at least 30 to 50 yards… the surface of the targets don’t dent or dimple, but it starts to look like it’s pitted with up close shooting from rifle FMJ rounds…
Now if you mount your steel targets perfection vertically and perpendicular to the shooter, .22s and just about anything will pelt you with lead and copper jacket particles and shrapnel… that happens down at TDI a lost and at cowboy action shoots a lot…
I have several steel targets I have built on my own, but we have 14 targets from Arntzen Steel and they’ve held up well… Arntzen does not recommend shooting as close as the gals and I typically do…
http://godgalsgunsgrub.blogspot.com/2011/08/arntzen-steel-targets-ping-ping-ping.html
Dann in Ohio
June 13th, 2014 at 10:26 am
USPSA specifies just over 50 yards from steel for rifle and that’s always worked pretty well at matches I attend. As others have said, angle helps, as does movement. Use a magnet on all ammo. Steel core, rifle (much of the low price ammo that’s available today is steel) will severly divot A500 shot from close range. Will go right through mild. Had several targets ruined at our range. Once you have divots, you have unpredictible ricochets.
June 13th, 2014 at 11:14 am
I got some 8″ eye bolts and fixed them to the holes provided in my AR500 targets. I ran a piece of rebar through the eyes of the bolts, which causes them to hang with a modest downward angle. They will rock when hit, but NOT twist. You don’t wan them to twist, so don’t use chain.
The rebar holding the target is then easily mounted to metal garden stakes. You can hammer them all day with any pistol you have and they will last forever, and the surface remains smooth. I do most of my pistol shooting at about 50 feet. However, the first shot with a rifle, either your SKS or your AR, will leave a small crater. Craters build up and make the target more dangerous.
So, my advice:
1) Mount them in a way that they are angled down and will not twist.
2) Have pistol-only targets that you can shoot up close.
3) Have rifle-only targets that are far away.
June 13th, 2014 at 1:46 pm
I got a series of AR400 steel that we shoot from anywhere between 7 and 65 yards with pistol and rifle and have had no problems over the years, other than cracked welds from heavy calibers. We are a private range and serve only friends and LEOs. So we don’t see the volume a commercial range would see.
We shoot the steel up close with pistol, and never closer than 30 yards with .223. However, we generally hang them at a down-angle and the steels are not fixed – they can swing up and down on the mount.
I have pock marks from bad ammo or too-close-in ammo, and frankly consider steel targets a consumable item. I have had no real splash-back but we are careful of angle and approach; anything within 30 degrees of the targets get absolutely shredded. In over six years we have had only found one round escape the range – a 45 handgun round – and I think that missed the targets entirely and skipped up and over the hill behind it (new shooter).
I have had cracked welds in the hangers from people bringing in heavy calibers. I grind those out and weld them back (abrasion-resistant steel requires just a bit more than attention than most steels, though).
The pits will be an issue over time. I don’t care what anyone says, pits are going to form over time. Nothing – no steel – is invincible to thousands of rounds of ammo hitting at high frequency. Just use common sense and put them into the recycle bin if they get too messed up. New steel is cheaper than a new eye socket.
At this point we are cutting and building our own steels. So YMMV.
June 13th, 2014 at 6:46 pm
Considering the cost, weight, and hazards of using steel targets, aren’t the new plastic self-healing targets a better option?
June 15th, 2014 at 5:19 pm
Personally I never shoot steel targets unless they are tilted to angle the bullet into the ground. Anything else is asking for trouble.