ATF head: Yeah, we kind of need a database of all gun owners to make our jobs easier
In his first television interview, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Deputy Director, Head Thomas Brandon tells CBS’ “Sunday Morning” that the agency’s job is not to take away firearms from people, but to regulate weapons that can be misused.
“We’re a small agency with a big job,” Brandon tells correspondent Richard Schlesinger, in an interview to be broadcast Sunday, July 31.
Brandon also says his agency is hampered by not having the necessary technology. Congress has imposed constraints on ATF, such as prohibiting the agency from creating a computerized database of gun purchases.
On to an actual database:
Yet, Brandon says, not having the database hurts. Indeed, after the San Bernardino shootings, it took 12 hours to find out who owned the guns used in the attack. He says a computer database would have helped, and adds that not having one simply doesn’t make sense.
“There’s a lot of things that don’t make sense in this town, you know?” Brandon tells Schlesinger. “And, so, yeah, would it be efficient and effective? Absolutely. Would the taxpayers benefit with public safety? Absolutely. Are we allowed to do it? No.”
Yes, because government lists are such a great idea.
August 1st, 2016 at 6:15 pm
Asshole needs to read the law. It’s not like it “would be nice”. It’s actually “You’re not allowed to have one”.
All he needs to do is to get both houses of Congress to agree, and start a decidedly un-civil war.
August 1st, 2016 at 6:17 pm
So the list will be ” … to regulate weapons that can be misused.”
What weapon exists that CANNOT be misused?
August 1st, 2016 at 6:35 pm
What makes you think they don’t already have one? Remember the DC sniper incident? Cops and ATF went to AR 15 owners houses and demanded you turn your guns over for ballistic testing. There was at that time no way they would have known who had one unless the NICS data was being kept. Don’t kid yourselves.
August 1st, 2016 at 6:48 pm
“Yet, Brandon says, not having the database hurts. Indeed, after the San Bernardino shootings, it took 12 hours to find out who owned the guns used in the attack.”
Twelve HOURS??
To quote a certain candidate for President, “What difference at this point does it make?” (And I’ll bet her English Comp teacher is still trying to recover.)
August 1st, 2016 at 6:50 pm
If you don’t have a list of which people to herd onto railroad cars how can you herd the “right” ones?
August 1st, 2016 at 7:07 pm
At least he’s willing to admit that he’s not permitted to do that.
Him admitting that he’d like to do that, openly and in plain language, was also quite refreshing.
August 1st, 2016 at 7:08 pm
I’ll support them keeping a list of gun owners right after they publicly publish a list of all federal agents that includes THEIR home addresses.
Goose…gander, etc.
August 1st, 2016 at 7:26 pm
The Bureau is a bad joke, and its existence is an affront to the American principles of liberty.
August 1st, 2016 at 7:44 pm
As my old boss used to say, semi-literately, “You bidded it.” Was the Deputy Director misled in any way about the strictures imposed on his authori-teh?
August 1st, 2016 at 7:58 pm
If you don’t have a list of which people to herd onto railroad cars how can you herd the “right” ones?
Or at least which ones to herd FIRST??
August 1st, 2016 at 9:37 pm
Ties directly to my bitching at your Colt AR post, about being an FFL not being much fun anymore…
With the gun selling process being almost entirely computerized now, everything that you do is in essence creating that database for them, the only question is storage and access. This while also assuming huge liability for screening customers to their newly EO-enhanced interpretation, specification and satisfaction.
As I said over there, eff that.
August 1st, 2016 at 10:01 pm
And which is my way of saying, they trot this little twit out to say “golly we just need some common sense information to protect the children” while the database already exists and is being updated and maintained daily by reluctant gov agents, aka FFL’s.
As I said there the question is of “storage and access”…what is kept, where and for how long? Who or what agencies have it available to them and for what purpose?
Somebody upthread say something about un-civil war?
Prob’ly where we’re going.
August 1st, 2016 at 10:21 pm
While the government is prohibited from having a database of gun owners, the ATF does maintain several databases of guns, and their owners. Anything associated with an FFL gun transfer can be searched: Name, address, serial number, etc.
Multiple handgun transfers: If you buy two or more handguns in a single purchase, your guns are in a database.
Multiple long gun transfers. In the border states, multiple long gun transfers are reported like handguns.
Stolen weapons: If you’ve ever reported a stolen firearm, even if it’s been recovered, it’s in the database.
Gun Trace Database: If a gun that you own, or were the first retail buyer, is traced by the ATF, you’re included in this database. known associates of whomever was in possession of the firearm at the time of the trace is also included.
August 1st, 2016 at 10:57 pm
… Why am I supposed to be crying about a whole 12 hours to see who owned the guns? They people with them were dead, so I think we have a little time before those scary ARS jump up and start murdering people again.
August 1st, 2016 at 11:49 pm
@Bill Baldwin,
Your list is accurate, good examples of the data gathering and processing that FFL’s are forced to perform without pay and under color of threat.
But this:
“Anything associated with an FFL gun transfer can be searched: Name, address, serial number, etc.”
If that applies to the transactions in your list, that’s correct. But if that is broadly applied to all FFL transfers, then I’d like to know what database you’re referencing there, because that would be illegal.
And I’m sure fedgov adminstrators and agents of the BATFE would never break the law.
August 2nd, 2016 at 5:00 am
@JTC
Only applies to the databases, not all FFL transfers.
August 2nd, 2016 at 10:05 am
How long is an FFL required to maintain records of sales? For a long time, I understood that it was10 years, but some say 20. Anyone know for sure?
August 2nd, 2016 at 10:51 am
I’m a bit confused, the guns were bought in California and they have a registration system. It took them 12 hours to search it ?
August 2nd, 2016 at 11:03 am
Ron W, an FFL keeps his 4473’s and what is (now euphemistically) called his bound book record of firearms comings and goings, for 20 years or until he gives up his license, and then ships it all to the ATF depository.
So NICS checks the buyer, no info on the gun except short or long and on certain transactions as Bill Baldwin noted; approvals are supposedly purged after a few days and non-approvals are kept for possible followup. But the 4473 with all info on the buyer AND what he bought stays with the dealer for 20 years or until he’s not a dealer anymore, at which time the basis for a list goes straight into fed hands. Do they have the capability to organize and retrieve that data? Who knows?
What we do know is that with “bound books” done in electronic form it’s all now already organized, searchable, and tied directly to those 4473’s in electronic and paper form. So yeah, there’s a list and/or the data to compile one for every FFL transfer since the inception of 4473…including four sets of my records from discontinued licenses over the years, and again it bugs the eff out of me to be acting as an agent of fedgov in compiling and providing this info. Even more so the profiling of prospective buyers, all laid out in the lengthy dealer instructions. See, profiling is bad when gov says it’s bad, but good when they say it’s good. Makes me sick, no so much to not provide a firearm to someone I choose not to provide one to anyway, but rather the forced set of criteria and actions that FFL’s perform under threat of criminal prosecution.
Of course much of the process and what is kept and can be searched is limited by the Privacy Act. And like I said above I’m sure fedgov would not infringe your privacy rights. Except of course NSA, TSA, IRS, FBI, CIA, ATF and maybe EPA.
August 2nd, 2016 at 11:37 am
JTC, thanks or the info! And I’m in full agreement with your opinions. It would seem that private sales would interrupt these paper and electronic sales which is why they are pushing “universal background checks”.
August 2nd, 2016 at 12:16 pm
JTC
Yes, dealer records that are readable, are scanned onto microfiche and stored. There is an index to the location of where the images are stored. The index can be searched by name or FFL. Some 4473s aren’t readable due to fire, flood, or storage condition.
For everyone interested in NICS checks:
NICS section checks the NCIC (ten databases), criminal history, and NICS Index.
Approvals are purged within a day. Congress was alerted a few years ago that approvals were being kept. FBI claimed that it was a software glitch. The glitch has been fixed.
Delays are kept for up to 88 days so that the NICS section can continue to investigate the buyer in the event of a default proceed. If a buyer is on any of the watch lists, the sale is automatically delayed while the FBI makes a determination of whether or not to allow the sale. If there is a default proceed and the FBI determines later that the buyer is a prohibited person, the FBI can send the ATF to retrieve the firearm. If you always get delayed, you can submit a Voluntary Appeal File and the FBI will keep your approval status on file.
Denials are kept while the FBI determines whether or not to prosecute, or the denied person files an appeal. Prosecutions for fibbing on the 4473 is at about .05 percent. That’s not a typo, it’s actually that low.
August 2nd, 2016 at 12:40 pm
Governments have repeatedly shown that they can neither be trusted to safeguard the information against unauthorized access or abuse by unethical officials.
August 2nd, 2016 at 2:52 pm
@rickn8or, yes, what’s that quote? “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
August 2nd, 2016 at 5:24 pm
A real-time, 24/7 map of the location of all elected oficials and armed government employees. Would it be efficient and effective? Absolutely. Would the taxpayers benefit with public safety? Absolutely. Are we allowed to do it? No.
August 2nd, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Bill Baldwin, good and accurate information, thanks. But any and all listed constraints on storage, access, and use by gov agents are to be taken with a block of salt, which is why my last para drips with disdain and distrust.
And rate of prosecution on 4473 seems infinitesimal until you consider the sample size. The problem in my view is that any wrong information at all that is provided by buyer or seller is potentially prosecutable as a felony; that leaves a lot of discretion for use and abuse by people in whom I have about zero trust and confidence. And keep in mind those records are forever, providing a treasure trove of possibilities for some future enemies list. Ask the jews about that.
August 4th, 2016 at 7:32 am
@JTC
Plus, remember the (original) movie “Red Dawn”. The invading enemy got the list and was confiscating firearms. You hear stories from old timers from eastern Europe about the firearm confiscations by the tyrannical government(s). They said that they had a list and when they cam for your gun if you did not have it you were arrested, maybe killed. One such old timer told me the story of hiding a gun he had, which was not on a list, inside the wall of a masonry building. If that building still stands that gun is likely still there. If he would have been caught with it he would have been arrested. But it was there if needed.