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December 19th, 2019 at 2:36 pm
What is the barrel to handgrip angle at the moment the bullet leaves the barrel? And is that important or not? Just asking, because I see a lot of data and wonder if it is the correct data for the problem under review.
December 19th, 2019 at 6:59 pm
…mikee, unless the frame was flexing under recoil, i don’t see how that angle would change?
well, and tilting barrels, i suppose. but i doubt most of them have time to start moving before the bullet leaves the muzzle.
December 19th, 2019 at 11:30 pm
Unless it’s undersprung (light recoil spring for easier racking or shooting light loads) shooting full house ammo) the barrel shouldn’t start tilting until AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel.
On the other hand, recoil starts the instant the primer detonates! That’s why light bullets shoot low in handguns compared to heavier bullets (at moderate pistol ranges). The inertia of the heavier bullet means the bullet starts moving later and travels down the barrel longer before exiting the muzzle – giving the muzzle more time to “rise” before it exits. Lighter guns (aka polymer frames) increase this effect since the lighter the gun (same load) the heavier the recoil.
110 degrees is likely right in a 43oz 1911 shooting hardball. Glocks (significantly lighter than a 1911, and with a wider grip angle will shoot high for anyone used to a 1911, unless using very light for caliber, higher than standard velocity ammo. That’s why SIG, S&W and S-A have more like 105 degrees on their polymer guns.
Of course the aluminum frame Commander is also too “open” in the grip. By shortening the slide and barrel and then using lighter materials, it recoils more so needs a tighter grip angle to compensate.
Note: all of this is for the initial presentation sight acquisition and/or reflexive point shooting. If you take your time and use your sights, ALL of this can be corrected with a proper height front sight and/or adjustable rear sight and take your time to get a proper sight picture.
But this is also why old timers think 1911’s “point naturally” and Glocks all shoot high, especially in 45ACP. When I draw a Glock from a holster, my natural grip results in an initial “sight picture” that includes a whole lot of the top of the slide and zero rear sight, and that’s made even WORSE if I’m shooting 147gr 9mm or hardball .45 loads.
For me, point shooting (or hurrying) with a Glock results in nice groups about 4″ above where I think I should be hitting at 10yds. 1911s are generally good with 230gr loads but 2″ low at 10yds with 185gr stuff. M&Ps and S-A XDs are good for me with heavy loads, but tend to hit low with light ones.
I have two SIGs, one polymer, one metal. The metal one hits an inch or two lower than the polymer with the same load in drills. Both are 9mm, and both shoot low to my natural point (2″ @ 10yds for metal, more like 4″ for the plastic one) with 115gr, but are closer with 125gr and spot on with 147gr.
Bottom line: The grip angle doesn’t matter if the sights are right, but it will help you “find” the front sight if it matches your natural grip/presentation – but whether your bullet HITS where you’re aiming depends more on the load, it’s muzzle velocity and the weight of the handgun relative to same.
Buy the one that comes up with you looking at the sights on presentation from the draw, and then change the sights so it hits where it looks with your preferred load.
If you find yourself “seeing the top of the slide” with your Glock, buy an M&P. If you can’t find your front sight of your M&P, buy a Glock. And if it’s a fixed sight gun, be prepared to buy new sights with a different height front sight to correct point of impact.