Question: Is poker gambling?
I’ve heard and used the phrase: I don’t gamble, I play poker. And there’s truth to it. But is the skill involved in poker enough to warrant a classification from game of chance to game of skill?
Apparently, there is some debate on that in the legal system in the UK.
Update: Some question on what is meant by poker. I mean card games (like Texas Hold-Em) and not video poker (which is 1 – obviously gambling and 2 – typically stacked against the player).
April 13th, 2007 at 10:18 am
I’d say a lot might depend on what type of poker it is, as well. Video poker in my mind is pretty definitely gambling.
A live game, not so much, and personally I’d call it an actual game.
Online poker against other online players…that’s a tough one.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:21 am
I guess I’ll always assumed that anything that involves wagering money an outcome, be it poker, sports, or you and your best friend betting on personal taco consumption, counts as gambling.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Mark Twain wrote a short story on this issue. The relevant story is here. I somehow doubt that you could win in court with this argument today.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
I’ve ALWAYS said that I “don’t gamble, I play poker” but truthfully there have been hands within a game where I’m most definitely chancing.
There is a skill, there is a strategy but unless you can count cards, tote running hands odds and have a complete bead on the table then there is an element of chance to it. Is this gambling? Maybe only slightly moreso than a game of chess, IMHO.
April 13th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
It depends on who you’re playing. In college it was more like investing than gambling. Drink your beer slowly and play with underclassmen.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
There appears to be some dispute as to whether poker generally, and a home poker game specifically, is illegal in Tennessee. It’s certainly a valid question, especially for those of us who love to play, and have no ready access to a legal live game (absent driving or flying several hours for one). Given what I do for a living, I thought I’d put some of my training to use, and post this note here. While I don’t like the law, here’s what the statute on this says:
Certain portions not applicable to analysis have been omitted.
Tennessee Code Annotated § 39-17-501
“As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) Gambling is contrary to the public policy of this state and means risking anything of value for a profit whose return is to any degree contingent on chance, or any games of chance associated with casinos, including, but not limited to, slot machines, roulette wheels and the like.
. . .
(2) “Gambling bet” means anything of value risked in gambling;
(3) “Gambling device or record” means anything designed for use in gambling, intended for use in gambling, or used for gambling;
. . .
(6) “Profit” means anything of value in addition to the gambling bet.”
The statute goes on to note, in the specific comments of the Tennessee Sentencing Commission, more detail to the meaning of the statute’s language. Their interpretation seems pretty clear.
“This section contains the definitions for gambling offenses. The definitions are intentionally broader than those found in prior law. The commission intends to include any scheme by which value is risked upon a chance for greater value as a “gambling” offense. The definition of “gambling” includes lotteries, chain or pyramid clubs, numbers, pinball, poker or any as yet unnamed scheme where value is risked for profit.”
The Tennessee Courts have not often addressed the issue of poker as gambling within the meaning of the statutes on this point. Since 1899, there have only been four reported cases in which gambling on poker (not video poker machines, but actual live games) is considered. The statutes on permissible gambling have changed several times during the last hundred years or so.
The statute is more geared at preventing casinos and card rooms seeking to operate the games for a business. The primary punitive aspects of the law are geared toward operating a gambling enterprise. The law is truly designed to restrict these businesses from operating. The punishment for the players are only somewhat secondary, in my opinion.
In other words, the law really wants to prevent shady backroom casinos operating for a profit which, as you would all suspect, is due to the fact that none of these proceeds would be TAXED. Punishment for the players is just a deterrent trying to keep these folks away from the untaxed card games for fear of a fine and/or jail time.
Saying all of that, I’m not sure that local law enforcement is going to get that worked up about enforcing the law against a group of friends playing a weekly low stakes game. However, under a strict interpretation of the statute, the weekly home game for pennies and nickels would probably be illegal gambling.
So you all know, according to T.C.A. § 39-17-502, “ The offense of gambling is a Class C misdemeanor.
In other words, the “skill” versus “chance” distinction doesn’t mean much in Tennessee. As for my opinion, I believe that poker is largely a skill-based game. Certainly, there is a degree of chance, or pure gambling, involved.
However, I draw the distinction on this simple point. In a game like craps or roulette, the outcome of your bet (and whether you win or lose) is based SOLELY on the roll of the dice or the drop of the ball. In poker, you can win a hand based on your bets, with the worst hand if you are a skillful player. It’s hard to win a Pass Line bet on a bluff.
April 13th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
[…] wish I’d been able to add this little gem from #9: Drink your beer slowly and play […]
April 13th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Given the empirical evidence, most notably that the top poker players win consistently over time, it is clear that skill is the determining factor, not chance. So even though Tennessee Law defines poker as gambling, reality says otherwise. But as long as there is any element of chance involved, no matter how tiny, Tennessee calls it gambling.
So, if you pay a fee to enter a golf tournament where the prize for winning is higher than the entry fee, you just gambled, because there is certainly an element of chance in golf, if for no other reason than the way weather affects play. And if you think I’m reading the statute too broadly, remember this from the explanatory section (and yes, I’m cribbing directly from Drawing Dead…):
“The commission intends to include any scheme by which value is risked upon a chance for greater value as a “gambling” offense.”
By these standards, any sporting activity that involves an entry fee, or risk, is gambling.
So let’s talk NASCAR for a moment. Teams risk hundreds of thousands of dollars every time they put a car on the track, and their chances of success are greatly affected by factors beyond their control, AKA chance. If you get caught up in somebody else’s wreck, you still lose the race, and often times incur losses of thousands of dollars in repairs to your car.
According to Tennessee law, that’s gambling. Somebody needs to arrest Mr. Bruton Smith and confiscate Bristol Motor Speedway as a gambling device.
Clearly, the statute is overly broad since it can be read to apply to just about any human activity that involves profit, say, like investing in a new company. Chance certainly plays a role in the outcome there.
I think we need a test case. Start a home game, advertise the crap out of it, and when the police come to close it down, fight it out in court. Point out the absurd nature of the law and call for prosecution of every activity that leads to profit via chance.
I’ll play in the game.
April 14th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
[…] comments here, DrawingDead writes: There appears to be some dispute as to whether poker generally, and a home […]
April 15th, 2007 at 1:29 am
Not just in the UK:
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=122697&ran=2818
You would think the cops would check the law before starting in on this kinda stuff.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:02 am
There’s enough of an element of chance to poker that I’d still call it gambling. Each set of face up cards in Texas Hold’em has one or more pairs of cards that create the absolute best hand (or “nuts”). If I have those cards every hand, it doesn’t matter how good my opponents are, I will win every hand.
May 4th, 2007 at 8:46 am
[…] We had the discussion a bit back. Now, Harvard wants to study it: By making the case for poker as a skill, aficionados hope to roll back the law, and even win the game newfound freedoms in states where wagering on poker is currently banned. […]