Chicks and guns – bleg
I was talking off line with Nashville’s Bad Bad Ivy (known to most of you by her cleavage) about guns. Seems she’s interested in pursuing purchasing a gun. There’s also another Nashville Gal who has asked me the same question a long time ago but, to my knowledge, hasn’t made a decision yet and asked to be kept quiet. Long and short, she’s looking for a handgun which she may or may not get a carry permit for. And she wants advice. I have my standard advice to the new shooter: A Glock in any .4X caliber. My reasoning is that Glocks are simple to operate and .4X has adequate stopping power. Others will recommend revolvers. I then told her I could pose the question to you guys and she’d get multitudes of different answers. And, since education and exposure are important, I’m asking you to hit her with both barrels. Also, recommend any resources to her you may have come across.
Prior to that, I recommend she head to the range with someone knowledgeable enough to teach her the basics of firearms safety and shooting.
Also, any of you Nashvillians who wish to volunteer to head to the range, let me know.
Feel free to leave comments here or over at Ivy’s somewhere here..
October 18th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Well, I didn’t see a specific post to comment on over there, so I’ll post here.
First and foremost, do your best to try to shoot the pistol before you buy it. I shot my father’s Glock 27 and a friend’s 29 (40 cal vs 10mm) and the ever so slight difference is grip width meant the difference between buying something I was simply ok with and something that fit my hand like a glove.
Now, my wife has a hard time with the 26, even though it’s only a 9mm. The recoil is just unpleasant for her. She’s shot an old WWII Walther P38 (also 9mm) and didn’t mind that one as much. She’s also fired a Kimber 1911 and found it to be the same felt recoil as the Glock 26, but the .45 is definitely a better round for SD.
Now, don’t automatically make the assumption that a smaller round will have less recoil. I *hate* my buddy’s Kel-Tec in .380 auto as well as my mother’s Rossi Snub-nosed 38 special. Both pistols use small rounds, but because they’re so small themselves, even the slightest recoil makes it want to jump out of my hands (which happen to be very large).
So, I’d suggest getting a bunch of gunnies to take you to the range and try a myriad of firearms. Revolvers tend to allow you to shoot heavier loads with less recoil, but don’t have the same ammo capacity as most semi’s. Revolvers are also more simple to use. But don’t let that dissuade you from a semi.
You want to ensure you get the most bang for your buck, and the play on words is very, very much intended. Don’t buy ANYTHING less than 38 special. It simply is not worth it to risk your safety on underpowered rounds. I’d suggest nothing less than 9mm just to be safe.
And whatever you buy, do yourself and your family the greatest favor and learn every thing you can about self defense, firearm safety, safety, safety, and safety.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:49 am
[…] 18, 2007 in enough about me, let’s talk about me Comments on Uncle’s “Ivy’s considering getting a gun” post? Feel free to comment here. No Comments Leave a Commenttrackback addressThere was an error […]
October 18th, 2007 at 11:55 am
A Glock would be a fine choice, Unc, but I’d go with the 9mm instead. It’s cheaper than .40 and much more pleasant to shoot, both of which will encourage a new shooter to practice more. It’s also every bit as good as a .40 for protection.
Bear in mind that the following is coming from someone who has owned five .40 cal Glocks: I think that every Glock .40 should have “I am a total n00b gun nerd who reads too many message boards” etched on the slide. π
October 18th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
I’m paying close attention to the answers here. I’m in the market too, and can’t decide.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Glocks work for people with big hands. A SIG 239 is a great carry gun for people with smaller hands. I agree with Tam’s advice on 9mm.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I second Robb’s advice. Try before you buy. And use .38spl or 9mm as the minimum. (Either’d be fine, by the way) Try lots of stuff, you might be surprised what you like. I’m a big guy and something of a recoil junkie (I *like* shooting a .45-70 in a T/C pistol, and you should see the grin I had on my face when the guys at the range let me shoot their elephant guns) and yet I don’t like the way 9mm handguns feel. I don’t like the way they recoil. Yes, I admitted on the internet that I find a 9mm’s recoil uncomfortable. You may find 9mms to be great (lots of folks do, and regardless of what some* may say drunk on testosterone, they’re plenty sufficient with modern ammo), and if so, go for it!
So, try stuff, see what you like, minimum of .38spl or 9mm. Oh, and for fun, shoot whatever ammo you like and can find cheaply. For protection, load with some ammo labeled as being for self defense. (Some form of hollow-point.)
*Certainly not me, no sirree. Never. What? No, really, never. *whistles…*
October 18th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Thanks for all the advice so far. I will definitely keep safety in mind- I have three kids and I don’t want any accidents or anything.
So, the less recoil, the better, I take it?
October 18th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I like revolvers and recommend them. A new one will benefit greatly from a trigger job by a professional gunsmith. Costs about $75 and makes the trigger much more pleasant.
The Smith & Wesson 642 is a 5 shot revolver in .38 Special that’s nice if you need to carry it concealed. Costs about $400. Because of the light weight it’s not particularly easy to shoot accurately, but with practice it works great.
In semi-automatics Rugers (P90, P95, P97, etc.) are incredibly reliable and cost less than $400.
Glocks are good, but I don’t know if I’d suggest them to a total newbie. The trigger and takeup are awfully light, and there’s the issue of having to pull the trigger to disassemble them.
SIGs are great, but pricey (about $700 or so).
October 18th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I’m a Glock man, but not sure it’s the gun for you. .40 Glocks are a lot for most men to handle, and are probably too much caliber for you…at least to train with regularly.
Less recoil is good. Simple physics dictates that the heavier the firearm, the less felt recoil. Counterintuitively, women need a heavier, not lighter, sidearm.
Frankly I think a 1911 is a great compromise for you. Easy to handle, there are good models to be had that aren’t much pricier than a Glock or Sig, and the felt recoil isn’t bad at all by comparison. A good compromise if you’re worried that 9mm isn’t enough stopping power. (While I’m a firm believer in .4x calibers myself, a 9mm that hits because you can control the gun works a lot better than a .40 that you shoot into the floor in front of the bad guy cause you can’t hit shit because you’re flinching or anticipating recoil).
October 18th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I second Tams advice on the Glock 9 mm. Had a Glock 23 and got rid of it because I felt, not only was it too thick for my hand, but I didn’t like the recoil of the .40 Caliber on that frame. The mid size frame is fine for something like a 9mm, but after extended range sessions really started to bother my wrist.
That said, I think a revolver in .38 Special is her best bet. Not as cool – unless you think revolvers are cool – but more practical.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Yeah, here’s the one thing that gets me about guns. Why can’t they sell them with decent triggers (I know, I know, everyone has their own preferance) but still. Your dropping hundreds of dollars on something, it ought to be perfect right out of the box. Don’t you think???
Would you buy a pair of shoes that didn’t fit just right and required, after dropping $200 on them, that you take them to a cobbler and spend another $50 on new in-soles because the ones that came with them weren’t comfortable???
As far as SIGs, Aim Surplus has been running some deals on police trade ins. I’d buy one (I think my father in law did) if I wasn’t saving up for a new rifle.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Not necessarily. It’s less “felt” recoil that you are looking to reduce. Last night, I shot off some absolutely hellacious .357 Magnum loads that literally scared little kids enough to make them leave. One would think that a concussion blast that literally was shaking the targets and had a fireball the size of a small child would hurt your hands. But because the bullet was only 110 grains (more on that in a minute) and the Dan Wesson is a BFG, the perceived recoil was next to nothing.
Now, take the same rounds and put them in a snub nosed, light-weight .357, and your wrist isn’t going to be happy. Same round, different pistol, much different “felt recoil”.
And that’s the other point – the cartridge you shoot is going to make a big difference in the recoil, so don’t fall into the trap of assuming all 40’s are too much. A heavier bullet (measured in grains. 7000 grains = 1 pound) will recoil harder than a lighter bullet. My 10mm’s are 155 grains and I take a pounding when I shoot, but if I were to switch to 180 grain, I would probably not be able to control it as well (assuming the same gunpowder & amount is used).
And I disagree with most people when it comes to practice ammo. “You shoot what you carry” is my idea, but then again I load my own ammunition so the cost isn’t as prohibitive. The reason is for what I mentioned above – 125 grain practice ammo isn’t going to feel the same as the Gold Dot 158 grain ammo and you don’t want to have to shoot in self defense and realize you can’t control it the same (not better or worse, just the similarity).
It’s ok to buy a box of range ammo to practice, but always shoot a few of your carry loads to ensure you’ll be able to when the time comes.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
So a trigger job makes the trigger, what, work better? And yeah, I do think revolvers are cool. It’d probably blow my “street cred” here in the ‘hood, though. π
October 18th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
One more thing, which are easier to load, revolvers or the, um, Glock type guns? Would that be called “semi-automatic”?
October 18th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
By my title, you’d figure I have a lot to say about guns, and I do. But to you, I say:
Try before you buy. All of them, if you can.
That’s it. Your hands are unique, your level of “shock resistance” is too. As far as where to start trying, well, I’d lay into a .22, any .22, until you have the basics of safety and shooting down. Then I’d go with a mid-sized .38 revolver or a mid 9mm auto just to start dialing down what your level of acceptable recoil is. Move up or down from there.
In fact, the only thing I can think of that’s nonlinear, i.e. it can trip you up because it doesn’t make “sense”, is that the level of felt recoil on some .380 blowback versus 9mm locked breech pistols (can explain, mfree@warped.com) overlap…. so while 9mm is much more powerful than .380, the pistol you shoot in in can be gentler than the pistols that shoot .380.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Uncle, uncle, uncle. We are SCIENTISTS here. There is a BIG difference between CLEAVAGE and BOOBAGE. Ivy is showing lots of boobage, no cleavage.
Glock 19, though I must say she looks like a pretty big girl.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Maybe someone should start a chicks ‘n guns blog?
I’m still paying attention, but my purchase progress has been put on hold due to an extreme change in employment status. But I am very grateful for the fantastic advice given by the guys here. Elsewhere, us “chicks” often get a pat on the head and “Aw isn’t dat cute? She wants to get herself a widdle gun!”
A quick look around, I don’t see mention of this: Students for Concealed Carry on Campus –
Seen elsewhere in response: “Carrying empty gun holsters around a campus in protest. Someone’s gonna get shot!”
My reply: That’s exactly the point they want to make.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
I preferred the felt recoil of a Glock 22 over a .38 Smith or a 1911. I could shoot it better too. For whatever that’s worth.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Ivy, revolvers are easier to load if you’re talking about hand strength. With semi-automatics you’ve got to push the cartridges down into the magazine, which takes some strength (especially to get the last few in there). And then you need to rack the slide to the rear to chamber the first round.
As far as speed of loading, semi-automatics are faster. It helps to buy a speedloader for your revolver. My favorite brand is Safariland – just push the speedloader into the cylinder and the cartridges release automatically.
Agree with Tam and Countertop that a .40 Glock isn’t the way to go. I like other Glocks in larger or smaller calibers, but the .40 has unpleasant recoil.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Ivy- I’ve just started to learn to shoot and I have to say that I much prefer an auto to a revolver. They seem easier to control and have less recoil. Revolvers may be easier to load and clean but it’s worth learning to use an auto, for its benefits. They’re not nearly as complicated to work as a sewing machine.
But I do agree with everyone here, try out a LOT of guns before you buy.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Not much else I can say here… but I will π
Try before you buy.
Everyone is different, and every gun feels different to different people. To me a Beretta 9mm (short frame version, don’t know the actual term for the model) is a nail driver. It just fits my hand very well and is very comfortable to shoot.
I like the way the Desert Eagles (full size 9mm) fit my hand, but not sure about the accuracy (haven’t shot one yet) since the barrel length is a touch shorter (.5″) than other guns with the same overall length (ie Glocks, Berettas, S&Ws in the same caliber).
I can’t shoot most ‘compact’ guns because when firing I hit the magazine release with my thumb. Not fun having to go look for the magazine after the first shot.
Guess my first sentence summed everything up. You have to find what works for you: caliber, type, and model. Only real way to do that is to try out as many different firearms as you can, then go from there. And don’t discard a brand or caliber just because someone said it sucked. You have to make your own decision about what feels best for you.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I have had several ladies really like the Browning HP in 9mm.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Yet another longish comment coming.
I’m going to join in recommending a nice .22 as your ‘starter’ pistol. I’ve got a friend who teaches women to shoot (she lives in the KC area as well) and she strongly recommends against .40 for women. Her position is that most women’s wrist bones are too fine to stand up to the ‘snappier’ recoil of the .40 over time.
First detour – there are two parts to recoil, both of which contribute to the ‘perceived’ or ‘felt’ recoil. There’s the push and the shove. Chris Byrne did a great post on this over at http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/
Basically there’s how hard the gun pushes and how fast it does it. A .45 will have less perceived recoil than a .40 of similar weight because the .45 doesn’t snap back as fast – it’s the difference between someone pushing on your hand and someone slapping it – the slap will sting a lot more.
Another detour – ‘perceived’ recoil includes things that aren’t actually recoil. My .357 snubbie produces such a huge explosion that I have trouble feeling the recoil – my system is just overwhelmed by the fireball. My Ever-Indulgent Wife, on the other hand, tends to add any ‘bang’ into whatever recoil she actually feels. For this reason we now have her ‘double plug’ when she tries out a new gun. That’s wearing both ear plugs and muffs – this will greatly reduce the noise of the shot and lets you feel what the recoil is really like. You should try it your first few times out (at least at the start).
Something like the popular Walther P22 is a good first pistol. It’s a .22LR semi-auto that was specifically made to be a ‘training’ pistol – it looks and operates just like its bigger siblings. The magazines are easy load, .22 is still cheap enough you can afford to shoot a lot of it, and it’s just plain fun!
My Ever-Indulgent Wife is a tiny thing – you can see her at http://www.peopleofthegun.com. Her first CCW pistol was / is a KelTec P-32. It’s only a .32ACP but it’s small, light, reasonably accurate, and inexpensive. Not a great first gun but a good first CCW. Not what you want for stopping a crazed biker, but then again I wouldn’t want to get shot with it and she’s good with it. She finally found a 9mm she liked – her new G26. It not only fits her small hands, it’s very easy to rack the slide and she’s not bothered by the recoil.
You name a range and I’ll bet there are several folks who’ll be willing to meet you there and let you try various pistols. I’m willing to meet with folks in the KC area.
As you can tell, we can go on about this for days π
October 18th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
The response I’ve been posting for some time to these sorts of queries is: get the gun in the most powerful caliber THAT YOU CAN SHOOT A LOT – COMFORTABLY. For some people, that’s something that starts with a 4, but for a lot more it will be something smaller.
If you’re going to use a gun in self defense, you not only have to be ABLE to hit what you aim at, you have to be CONFIDENT that you will hit what you aim at. This takes PRACTICE. Practice with the gun you’re actually going to use in a defensive shooting. No shooting a heavy 22 at the range and packing a 12 ounce S&W snubbie with full house 357 rounds. If you’re going to carry it, you have to be able to shoot it a lot to get good with it and to develop confidence in your ability with it.
My aging hand and wrist won’t tolerate 9mm Luger in any concealable (on me) gun. I shoot a 9mm Browning High Power in IDPA competition, and can shoot it all day without pain, but that gun is too big (for me) to conceal. The concealable 9mm’s that I’ve tried (had a KelTec P11, tried a friend’s polymer Kahr) were uncomfortable after a a dozen rounds or so. So I’ve ended up carrying a Makarov (9×18.) I can conceal it well, it was fairly inexpensive, is dead nuts reliable, and best of all I can shoot it all day without pain. As a result, I have become deadly accurate with it (on silhouettes out to 50 YARDS), can practice with it regularly on both bullseyes and paper or steel silhouettes, and so am confident of my abilities with it. The loads I carry actually have more muzzle energy than +P rounds from my 2″ S&W revolver (which I HATE to shoot) so I don’t feel particularly underpowered.
But as Dano suggests above, every gun feels different to different people. Even the 9×18 round is something I have found to be VERY unpleasant to shoot in a Polish P64 (which is not THAT much smaller or lighter than a Makarov) while it’s not a problem to shoot all day in the Makarov or the similarly-sized CZ-82. Likewise, 380 in my brother-in-law’s Browning BDA is a delightful round to shoot, but in my (much smaller and lighter) KelTec P3AT is no fun at all after 6 shots.
So you just have to try before you buy.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
I have a .40 S&W Baby Eagle (I don’t think the larger Desert Eagle comes in 9mm…. the Baby Eagle/Jericho, however, does.) and my girlfriend has a .45 Glock (39, I think). While the .45 doesn’t kick “too bad,” I can tell when she gets tired at the range – there’s a lower left to upper right pattern to her shots. We’ve since picked up a Beretta 90two (.40) for me an a Wilson ADP (9mm) for her. Unfortunately, they haven’t been to the range yet.
October 18th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
I recommend a 2″ .357 revolver. A Smith is my first love, but I like the bang for the buck of the Taurus models. Small, light, and fire .38s all day long without beating you up, but can really pack a punch with .357 rounds. No safety, no slide, no magazine eject button. No muss, no fuss, pull the trigger and it goes bang.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
My advice, Kel-Tec .380 for carry. Glock .4X at home or in the car. Yes, you can have two guns.
If you don’t have it, it can’t help you. You have a right to have protection.
But there is no doubt a 9mm is more pleasant for target practice.
My better half, who is a much better shot and never flinches likes her 1911. With the butterfly job and custom trigger. Birthday and Christmas presents.
I have the Glock 10 mm which can kill a car engine. And I do flinch with the 10 MM. Not much. But enough to be made fun of. By the better half.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
If you want the best, you need a 1911.
If you want a good beginner gun to shoot, get a glock.
If you want a gun to conceal and carry, get the gun which is most comfortable for you, and get the best holster you can.
You wouldn’t spend $10 on a bra would you? A holster is like a man-bra; it is always on you except in the shower and in bed, and it’s always rubbing your skin.
The best holster is the Kramer leather perfectionist – it costs about $125 but I’ve worn it for 2 years straight and it was worth every penny. Totally better than the cheap crap.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I have some experience as an NRA personal protection instructor in classes directed specifically at women. Almost all of them were new shooters, inexperienced with firearms. They were bothered by the noise of the shot, the recoil of the shot, by the idea of killing, and by the expense of practice. Counteracting the influence of movies and TV dramas with regard to use of guns was a big part of the effort. We shot at full size silhouette targets at 7 yards. Although each student provided their own pistol and ammo, I had several .22’s for them to shoot for their initial experiences. Lots of emphasis was put on range safety and firearm etiquette. We taught a two hand grip, slow fire, using the sights. No quick draw .Most shooters consumed 2 or 3 boxes of ammo at each session. A number of experienced shooters participated just to get the range time ( Indoor Range,Wednesday nights, 6 til 10, for three months ) and they gladly helped the beginners.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Gotta admit that I haven’t read all of the other comments, so this might be redundant. Sorry; the sudafed’s kicking in, and I’m crashing.
To the point – Glocks are great guns, but for a first pistol, I’d be hesitant to recommend it. I obviously don’t know her, what she does for a living, what type of clothes she typically wears, etc. All of those things can (and should) factor into her decision, unless she knows she’ll be buying another gun eventually for other carry situations. For me (and my wife), it came down to one major (and a few minor) factor: You can’t chamber a round an de-cock the gun. I know; if it’s in a holster (which it should be, even in a purse) there’s less of a chance for a ND. That said, unless she’s going to train frequently and thoroughly (which she should anyway) and carry it often enough to build good habits, I have to recommend a DA/SA gun in either .40 or .45 if it’s a semi-auto. Plenty of good things to be said for hammerless J-frames, but again, without more info on her situation, it’s tough to be more specific. Hope this helps her or someone else.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
I’ve got nearly a dozen handguns…revolvers and automatics, .22 thru .45. My daughter prefers my .357 wheel gun, my wife the .22 automatic, and a young friend loves my full sized .45 auto. None are over 5’2″ or 110 lbs.
Try as many types of pistols in as many calibers as you can. Personally I find my .357 and .45 much more comfortable than my 9mm.
Don’t buy a target pistol if you want a bedroom gun nor a bedroom gun if you plan to carry. Buy something you can afford to practice with, a lot. New shooters need not go crazy with their first purchase…just get something that strikes your fancy and start shootin’.
A nice .357 revolver, barrel length depending on your purpose, and practice with cheap .38s. Revolvers work every time, and 6 shots are plenty. Revolvers are beautiful, as are classic pattern automatics. New automatic designs don’t impress me that much. A Browning Hi-Power, classic .45, or a Python beat out a Glock or HK in looks any time.
After a while you might pick up another, and another, and another…but get started already.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Recommend .38 revolver.
Semi-autos are not recommended. Racking is hard for new shooters under pressure. Less maintenance required. Better ability to determine loaded/empty state.
Most important, anything with a slide will injure an inexperienced shooter because their grip is guaranteed to overlap with the mechanism.
October 19th, 2007 at 12:05 am
It would be nice if you had a friend or friends you could go to a range with and shoot their guns to get an idea of what you like. I picked my first gun out by pure looks and while I ended up with a decent gun, its gone now and I have what I really like.
Shooting the guns is the only way you’ll really know what you like.
If you can’t do that, then at least try holding several different guns to see what fits your hand, I’m a huge guy and I hate Glock grips, I guess its because my hands are meaty.
I’d also suggest sticking to 9mm/.38 Special and up for protection. Smaller calibers can work, but you start making the job tougher below 9mm IMO and they aren’t so powerful as to be unpleasant to shoot (plus as TAM said, cheap).
Revolver vs Semi-Auto? Choose what you like and fits you best. The Semi-Auto’s biggest advantage is that some of them can hold a lot of ammo. A full or mid-size 9mm semi-auto can hold up to 17-19 rounds in the magazine whereas a revolver is limited to 5-7 in .38 Special. I’ve not been in a gunfight, but I imagine you can’t have too much ammo available.
Finally, I hope you join us and start shooting and realize what a pleasure it is and feel the satisfaction of knowing that you are capable of defending yourself and your loved ones. Go forth, shoot straight and be safe.
October 19th, 2007 at 7:56 am
I’d offer to go to the range with her, but in my case “the range” is my back yard.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:01 am
“Master of Obvious” is a good example of why I don’t hang out on internet gun boards any more…
Anyhow, check out my friend Kathy’s site, as she designed it around helping women new to guns: CorneredCat.com
October 19th, 2007 at 9:22 am
At least I kept it short!
October 19th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
MoO, long right trumps short wrong daily.
October 20th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
This is only vaguely related, but I’m interested in what you all think for situations where a workplace explicitly bans the presence of guns. Say you were considering something for self-defense, but technically you wouldn’t be able to carry a gun to and from work, and that to and from is when you’re most often out alone. Is there something else you recommend for self-defense? I’m puzzled as to how something like a carry permit would work when you’re not allowed to have a gun at the workplace, and what the alternatives might be.
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:33 am
[…] comments here, Rachel asks: This is only vaguely related, but Im interested in what you all think for situations […]
October 24th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
After we had the apartment broken into, my better half wanted a gun for protection. We tried several and she ended up withg a S&W hammerless 38 special. She can practice with standard 38S ammo but I keep it loaded with +P hollow points. having said that, nothing beats a 12 gauge for home protection if you’re trapped at the end of a hallway or in a bedroom. makes a loud noise and kicks but it sure opens up the fear of god in burglars – and the hallway.