First and second amendment and TWRA
Went to the Glock Sport Shooting Foundation match today (more on the match later) and had two interesting experiences. Glenn was there to do a show for Instavision and I got to play cameraman. After filming a brief intro, a Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency employee came up and asked us what we were doing. We told him, mentioned that GSSF said it was OK. He told us that filming was not allowed unless you had permission from Nashville, whatever that means. He was sure to point out that, while it was Glock’s shoot, he and the state bureaucracy were in charge.
Then he asks me if my holstered gun was loaded. I affirm that it is because it’s pointless to carry a gun if it’s unloaded. He tells me there’s a sign at the front that says no carrying loaded weapons. I missed it, apparently. Silly me, thinking that at a shooting range, competing in a shooting event that it was OK to carry a gun. What was I thinking?
Otherwise, I had a good time. GSSF is a great event to shoot. More on that later.
My trend of bad experiences at that range continues.
Update: To be clear, this was not GSSF’s doing. As always, they ran a great match. They rent the facility from the state and the state enforces their silly range rules. Another rule is all shooting at their open to the public range is from the bench, which kind of stinks for handguns.
June 5th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
I believe GSSF Matches are always cold ranges, so generally at the Match you can’t carry a loaded firearm around. Probably because they cater to shooters of all skill levels.
June 5th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Most competitions have cold ranges.
You load at a specific spot, then fire the stage, then unload at a specific spot.
If you are carrying as loaded defense firearm, you do not participate, as that negates the entire reason for having a loading table and an unloading table.
June 5th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
The World is a Hot Range. — a PMI whose name I don’t recall.
June 5th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
It’s not just that range, it’s that type of competition. Most (if not all) practical pistol pistol competitions are shot on cold ranges. In fact, walking off the stage you’re shooting with a loaded firearm and/or loading or unloading a firearm outside of the direction of an RO is an immediate disqualification from the match.
There is probably a significant amount of loaded, easy-to-access firepower at any given match, it’s just that it’s not in plain sight of the RO’s.
June 5th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
CMP and NRA Matches all cold. You case or box up the guns with an empty chamber indicator. It’s so common that I hadn’t thought about it. You don’t load until after the prep period, and only on command.
Sounds like a great match! You and the Smoothly Villianous Professor probably make quite a pair.
June 5th, 2011 at 5:53 pm
Oh the fun I would have if some jackass tried to tell me I couldn’t film on state owned property.
My response to “You can’t film without permission from Richmond” would be along the lines of “Richmond can kiss my ass”.
June 5th, 2011 at 6:13 pm
I like to play by big boy rules as Larry Vickers calls them. This is why I avoid matches. They can bee a good way to form training scars. I saw a guy at a Ken Hackathorn class who habitually cleared his pistol before re-holstering. This was a trainig scar from match attendence.
I am a training junkie, take at least two classes a year from a tier one instructor like Vickers or Hackathorn a year, practice at least 20 times a year but stay the hell away from matches. I train to follow thru, scan, assess, top off and re-holster a loaded pistol. I am a GSSF member and thinking aobut going to a match just for the hell of it but refuse to make a habit of it.
Why can’t the rules be no un-holstered pistols when not actively competiting? Holstered loaded pistols do not go off.
June 5th, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Granted, I don’t shoot competition much, but any range I’ve been at, cold range means guns are either left out with the action open or the are holstered.
June 5th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
GSSF rules require mag out, slide to the rear if left in the holster.
June 5th, 2011 at 6:39 pm
I was not on the line but at the entrance.
June 5th, 2011 at 6:41 pm
“GSSF rules require mag out, slide to the rear if left in the holster.”
So, no revolvers then?
Don’t feel bad, Unc. The rules are made to the LCD, aka “the Cletii”. Think of the gun shop or the gun range and then you will realize why unloaded guns are necessary.
June 5th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Shootin’ Buddy – since “GSSF” stands for “Glock Shooting Sports Foundation”, there is no revolver division.
June 5th, 2011 at 7:17 pm
“since “GSSF” stands for “Glock Shooting Sports Foundation”, there is no revolver division.”
You have to shoot a Glock then? Got it. Not hip to the gun games.
June 5th, 2011 at 8:24 pm
IDPA is the same way. All the ranges are run cold which I find kind of funny since it’s suppose simulate concealed carry. Of course they have to cater to the lowest denominator and a lot of guys treat it as the game it is.
Mike, don’t cut yourself out of shooting matches. If you’re not shooting to win, you can still get some valuable trigger time. If you’re worried about developing training scars there’s no way your ever going to match a real fight for your life so you might as well concentrate on the basics.
June 5th, 2011 at 9:55 pm
At Volunteer, some of the ROs are good, some are just guys who don’t have a lot of time on their hands (& it shows), and some are jackasses. The worst offender is one who claims to be a gunsmith and is allegedly in charge of organizing NRA shoots. I won’t mention his name; interested parties can find it easily enough.
June 5th, 2011 at 9:57 pm
Of course, I should have said “…that DO have a lot of time on their hands”
June 5th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
“If you’re worried about developing training scars”
I can do that with a PACT timer. I can do even more shooting the Hackathorn Standards and practicing shooting on the moove and shooting weak-hand drills. Compete enough and you will start doing things like clearing your weapon after a string of fire out of pure reflex.
“there’s no way your ever going to match a real fight for your life so you might as well concentrate on the basics.”
No, but you can up the odds in your favor. You don’t have to be omnicient, just better than your opponent. There are things you can do to help you operate inside his OODA loop instead of him in yours and proper, professional training helps there greatly.
To me, most competiton is Golf with guns. Fun but not necessairly as fully useful as I would like it to be. Competition can certainly help make you a better shooter, Hell I was on the WVARNG State Rifle Team and shot high-power across the country once! Still, shooting is only one third of the Triad of Gunfighting. Admittedly, it is the foundation but still only one part of three. Weapons Manipulation and Mindset being the other two. Most current competiton only helps the shooting third. It can actually retard the other two.
I would love to see a league that plays by big boy rules and does not make things, as my friend Larry says: “So safe, they are unsafe.” One that also trains to the other two thirds of the Triad as well.
There have been cops found dead with brass in thier pockets where they PICKED-UP BRASS IN THE MIDDLE OF A GUNFIGHT!!! This what the way they learned to shoot at their Academy and Department. Pick up your brass or be chewed-out! Under stress when you get the adreneline hit and your reptile brain takes over during the whole fight or flight thing, you will revert to your lowest level of training. Make sure your lowest level is still a high place.
June 5th, 2011 at 10:50 pm
Other things matches like the GSSF matches (I have read their standards and rules) discourage is reloading in the middle of a string. My rifle goes to bolt lock, I am grabbing my blaster. My blaster goes to slide lock, I am doing a speed-reload. I have spent considerable time and money training myself to do this with no conscieous though but pure reflex.
http://gssfonline.com/pdf/courses/GLOCKthePlates.pdf
Now, looking at the GSSF rules on their “Glock the Plates” stage, if I do this in the middle of a string, I will be peanalized ten points for a behavior that is tactically highly desirable.
June 5th, 2011 at 11:49 pm
No, it’ the John Sevier range. I had a friend who got in an argument with one of those TWRA guys and left, disgusted. The one time I had to go there they were nowhere to be seen. Our senior people were running the show and we did not need their help, just the use of their range.
June 6th, 2011 at 8:09 am
At least it was done at a public range down ther. In PA, you would only be allowed 6 rounds in a magazine, and its your word against the game warden if they think you shot more than that.
June 6th, 2011 at 8:10 am
In my experience, the TWRA officers at the Rifle Range Road facility don’t want you there… they don’t have a choice about letting you in but they don’t like it. On top of that, the Volunteer Rifle and Pistol Club (VRPC) members who are the range officers don’t want any new blood in the club and do their best to run off newbies. I joined for a year and found road blocks set up in front of everything I tried to do.
June 6th, 2011 at 8:24 am
Shootin’ Buddy – since “GSSF” stands for “Glock Shooting Sports Foundation”, there is no revolver division.
Glock doesnt make revolvers?!?!
What about all those 45mm Glock semi auto revolvers (Aka Death Machines) the press keeps telling me about?
And I’m pretty sure folks on Glock Talk have been announcing the latest greatest forthcoming Glock Revolver for at least a decade now.
June 6th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
Over 90% of the workers were Vol. Rifle & Pistol Club members. I’m not going to argue about some of the RO’s on the bench rest.
Check pistol events in our newsletter at http://www.vrpc.info, you might be surprised at how things are run on the pistol range on the third Sunday.
June 7th, 2011 at 12:18 am
TWRA clearly says no carrying of loaded weapons on the range. You don’t like, go elsewhere. It’s their range and their rules. We deal with the public and some of them don’t know how to load their pistol or where the safetys are. There is a reason for the rule and thus far no one has been shot at our range. I have a carry permit but honor the TWRA rules of the range. And yes, it was a silly mistake.
As a long time Volunteer RSO, sure, some guys are great and others not so great. You find that everywhere. I’ve always looked on it as a chance to have some fun. We were shorthanded and did the best we could under some difficult circcumstance. I just hope all of the Glock folks will come on back next year. I found them to be a great group of folks, but like with the RO’s there are exceptions. The shooting sports are supposed to be for fun and to increase one’s proficiency. That being said,
June 7th, 2011 at 8:44 am
Bill, it doesn’t say it clearly enough that I missed the sign.
That’s the plan.
June 7th, 2011 at 9:43 am
Ah..the joys of having 10 acres rural with a nice dirt pit to go shooting targets at.
June 7th, 2011 at 10:04 am
I have no trouble going from a GSSF/IDPA cold range to a DTI course every gun is loaded state of mind. Really it’s not hard.
You score each string time so there is no great rush to reload in a GSSF match. I RO’d the Dickson GSSF and we were told the object of these matches is to get new shooters interested in shooting once they purchased their Glock. It’s just a fun time without any stress other than you put on yourself.
I had several new shooters that would not have been safe drawing from a holster because, surprise, they never owned a holster. Their were several with really bad grips, yanking triggers, and failing to even glance at the front sight but were havng a great time.
More power to them. If they asked for help the got it, if not go make noise.
Our local range allows you to draw and fire from a holster on the pistol bays but you need to clear the weapon when traveling back and forth to your vehicle.
Make no sense to me either.
June 7th, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Most of the comments seem to be about carrying or not carrying at a competition.
The real issue here is a state-paid goon trying say that the First Amendment doesn’t apply on state property without special permission “from Nashville.”
In my personal experiences, the “wildlife officers,” (especially in the south, and I’m a proud southerner) are some of the biggest power-hungry goons out there.
In my home state, “wildlife officers” were “given” the power to enter your house WITHOUT WARRANTS. Of course, they can only search for “wildlife-related” things, like venison in your freezer.
In my home state, many of the “wildlife officers” are sent along on drug raid teams precisely and exactly because the state says they can enter homes WITHOUT WARRANTS.
The “wildlife officers” in many states need to be reigned in.
June 8th, 2011 at 9:14 am
Gun owners need to grow up when it comes to this situation. Of all the public places in the WORLD where you’re least likely to get mugged, a shooting range has to be #1 or #1a.
Of all the public places in the same world where you might be injured by a neg discharge, a shooting range is also going to be #1. Hence the rule.
Hell, even the Texas Defensive Shooting Academy specifies carrying cold off the firing line. It’s because of liabilities issues — so if you’re going to blame anyone, blame the lawyers, not the ranges.
When we hosted the Nation of Riflemen shoot at TDSA, we damn nearly got tossed off the range because a couple of assholes refused to follow the rules — like we were all going to get blindsided by an Al Qa’eda ambush, or mugged by the Crips at any moment. Only my relationship with the TDSA folks saved us from having to cancel the two-day event after only a couple of hours, just because some dickheads wanted to carry hot guns off the line.
Good grief: gun shows were banned at the Frisco Convention Center for three years because on the very first gun show there, a Glock dealer had a ND. A FFL had a neg discharge in a venue where ALL guns have to be unloaded — go figure.
Sadly, the ranges have to allow for the lowest common denominator in their policies, and we just have to live with that.
As for the photography issue, however: I’m with the folks who would tell the govt flunkies to KMA.