Defense
In response to the NRA’s offense, Obama shill Sean breaks out the straws (and strawmen) to grasp:
National Republican Association
Per an NRA lobbyist I once had dinner with, NRA endorses more Democrats in Tennessee than Republicans. Continuing:
In the ad, they claim that “he also supports a ban on the shotguns and rifles most of us use for hunting.” An interesting claim, and the reference used to back it up is the 2004 debate between Obama and Alan Keyes.
It also comes from a 2003 bill (S.B. 1195) which would have banned a lot of weapons, even weapons that were not semi-automatic. The rest of Obama’s gun votes tell the same story.
But keep telling us it’s OK. He’s not getting Biden’s guns and he doesn’t have the votes anyway. It’s working so well.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
What is the difference in relation to shotguns between that Assault Weapons Ban and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban?
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
And, wait a second, Obama didn’t even join the State Senate until 1997.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
well, for one, it bans anything over 50 caliber, that includes most shotguns. And it expands the already made-up definition of ‘assault weapon’ quite a bit.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
d’oh. mistyped. it’s 2003
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Interesting, considering most people don’t go buy “caliber” when describing shotguns, I’m sure that bill would’ve been amended to reflect the error. Oh, wait, the Senate Sponsor did offer an amendment to clarify the language which changed the language to “any long range 50 caliber sniper rifle capable of firing a centerfire cartridge in 50 caliber, .50 BMG caliber, any other variant of 50 caliber, or any metric equivalent of such calibers, or any handgun which uses fixed ammunition having a caliber of 50 or greater.”
It also stated that an assault weapon is not “a 50 caliber rifle firing fixed ammunition that was specifically designed for big game hunting or sporting use”.
Regardless, it doesn’t appear as though Obama was either a co-sponsor of that bill, nor did he ever get a chance to vote on it.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Sean, do you seriously argue that Obama is friendly on gun issues? That we have nothing to worry about? Seems like he’s got a pretty impressive list of voting for every ban / increase in regulations that’s come across his desk and not voted on anything that would remove restrictions.
And yes, as Uncle has listed above, he would have banned most shotguns since my 12 gauge is 18mm / .729 Caliber, vastly larger than 50 cal. 16, 20, and 28 gauges are .663, .615, and .550 caliber, which is practically every other shotgun on the market.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
And both were voted on by Obama, yes? In addition to all the other guns it was banning.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Sean, so you’re saying slugs are not center fire? Or are you saying shotguns cannot be used for snipering?
And are you saying that supporting a bill, but not getting the chance to vote on it absolves you of your original support?
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Robb,
And as I pointed out, that bill was amended (or would’ve been if it didn’t get bottled up in committee) to reflect that.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
And both were voted on by Obama, yes?
Neither were voted on by Obama so far as I can tell.
Robb,
When and where did Obama say he supported that bill? Nobody has provided me the context, other than the Alan Keyes debate, where they were talking about the Federal AWB. I don’t doubt that he probably did, but I’m sure he would’ve supported the substitute amendment introduced by the bill’s sponsor.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Reflect what? That shotgun shells aren’t center fire (hint – they are)? Or that you can’t snipe with them (hint – you can)?
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I’m sure that if he had the chance to vote on it, he would acknowledge our 2nd Amendment Rights and vote it down….he does support our 2nd Amendment Rights…as long as you live in the right place….and don’t use your firearm to defend yourself and your family…and have the proper amount of ammo in your magazine….and the proper type….and the proper caliber….and the proper license….etc….
He wants to ban our guns. Whether they are shotguns(O/U S/S pump or semi auto) handguns (wheelguns, semi autos .17-.50AE) and rifles (bolt action, single shot, or semi auto magazine fed). Because when we have the means to protect ourselves and provide our own food with hunting we are Sovereign Citizens who don’t want or need government agents snooping around trying to “protect us” from ourselves.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Really?
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
If you want to stretch “long range sniper rifle” to a shotgun, you are more than welcome to live in your fantasy world. But from an executive standpoint, shotguns would not have been covered under the amended language.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm
sean, the bill said any firearm over 50 cal. did not distinguish shotguns.
And, details aside, he wants to ban popular weapons.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Fair enough, committee votes weren’t listed on the website. The amended version went to committee, but it appears the bill died for lack of action before they voted on it…unless you can find votes to the contrary.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Uncle,
As I said, once the error was found out, an amendment was introduced by the sponsor to clarify. Considering most people don’t describe shotguns in terms of caliber, I doubt the issue was considered.
I never claimed that Obama was an expert on firearms, or as good at stretching the definition of long range sniper rifle like Robb here.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Great! He also pushes legislation he’s ignorant of.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Well, he didn’t “push” the legislation (that would typically be indicated by a co-sponsorship), he voted for a bill presented to him. Unfortunately, I don’t know if the Committee Transcripts are available to see what the discussion on the bill was, and whether the topic of shotgun calibers was brought up.
No Senator is an expert in every topic they vote on.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Let’s flip it, name the pro gun bills that Obama has voted for or supported. Face it, the man is the most anti-2nd Amendment candidate in American history(and that is saying alot).
That anyone can say, with a straight face, that he supports 2nd amendment rights tells more about the delusions and fantasies of that person then it does about Obama.
Hell, just the fact that he comes from the Chicago political machine should tell anyone all they need to know about how Obama feels about our 2nd Amendment rights.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Also, remind us of Obama’s position on the Heller decision and on the House bill to make the District comply with the Supreme Court. If he is for 2nd Amendement rights, how can he be against a law that would basically give DC similar gun laws as Massachusetts.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I second Yosemite Sam’s proposal. Also, name any anti-gun bills that Obama has voted against.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of having sunshine blown up our asses by anti-gun Democrats with a lifetime of antipathy to our right to bear arms and come election time being pandered to and assured that they aren’t going to take our $1000 + over/under shotguns? Hell, at least Gore had the balls to run as anti-gun.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Sean, define the difference then between one tube that is sealed on one end and fires a certain sized projectile and another tube that fires the same sized projectile. Please. Because that’s a point us gunnies make all the time. It’s not the caliber, it’s not how the weapon looks, it has nothing to do with its action, nor does it matter how many rounds it can hold, it’s the person using it that is the problem. And Barack Wouldn’t Know Fiddy Cent from Fiddy Cal Obama is a gun grabber and if he can make owning a shotgun harder, he will.
We’ve proven to you his record on guns, we’ve shown you the bills he’s supported in name or in sponsorship, and you seem to be trying to tell us we’re wrong. Show me legislation he’s involved himself in that would allow citizens the right to protect themselves with the tools they see fit to.
You can’t.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Robb,
If you don’t understand the difference between a long range 50 caliber sniper rifle and a 12-gauge shotgun, we really don’t have any common ground to debate this on.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
and we darn sure better not pass any laws!
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
So Sean,
You admit that Obama voted on a poorly written anti-gun bill while ignorant of the intent.
Why, in your opinion, would he do that?
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I do understand the difference while you, on the other hand, don’t seem to grasp that those who make laws, don’t. It’s why the Zero tolerance policies of schools don’t differentiate between crack cocaine and Tylenol.
You also seem to think those who want to ban 50BMGs, a weapon that has never been used in a crime as far as I can remember would stop with that.
But seriously, you being the gun expert and all, define what makes a shotgun a shotgun and a rifle a rifle. What’s that ONE thing they can say that “Oh, if it has this, then we won’t ban it”. What would prevent me from calling a .577 Tyrannosaur and calling it a 24 gauge?
Not that it matters what you think, it’s pretty clear what the O’Man thinks of guns, and it’s not too highly. Good luck convincing gun owners otherwise.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:59 pm
That should read “What would prevent me from calling a .577 Tyrannosaur a 24 gauge?”.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Why, in your opinion, would he do that?
I don’t know why or how he voted on the bill, the records are murky at best. My assumption would be that he thought it was banning .50 caliber rifles and handguns, and that most people don’t think of Shotguns in terms of caliber.
Robb,
I’d say an important difference between a 12 gauge shotgun and a .50 caliber sniper rifle is the ability to blow a head off from a half mile away.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Now, as for my personal position, I think all weapons, sans WMD, should be available to the general public with the proper training and licensing. I have no problem with someone who undergoes a more stringent background check, as well as can provide evidence of the ability to properly store their weapons, getting a long range .50 caliber weapon.
I just think more dangerous weapons (as defined by their ability to kill multiple people from longer distances) should be more stringently regulated than a 12 gauge shotgun or BB Gun.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
the other would be that one is a real word that really has a real meaning. And the other is a scare term that doesn’t mean much.
But Obama has a problem with it. And that’s the point.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:31 pm
This stuff reminds me that a person cannot be both a supporter of the 2nd amendment and a Obama supporter.
This also puts to rest the silly idea that the pen is mighter than the sword, since you do not need to wait six months to wield a keyboard in certain states like you do with a gun.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:33 pm
I have a rifled barrel and a sabot slug for my 12 gauge. What is it’s maximum distance? Would you feel safe standing only 1/2 a mile away?
How far could I pop you in the beanie with a .223? .308? .338 Lapua? 30.06?
All of them common rounds, all of them lethal at a mile. Some a bit harder to control maybe than others at those distances, but it’s fairy tale (hence, a staple of Liberal dogma) that anyone can just go into a store, pick up a 50 BMG, and pop someone at a distance over 880 yards with ease with their first (or 100th) shot.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
“I don?t know why or how he voted on the bill, the records are murky at best. My assumption would be that he thought it was banning .50 caliber rifles and handguns, and that most people don?t think of Shotguns in terms of caliber.”
No, the records are not ‘murky’. He voted for it in committee when it contained the vague and poorly written wording.
Basically, he didn’t read the bill or investigate it in any way. He voted for it because it was a gun ban.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
The 50 BMG bans illustrate concretely that anyone who votes for them, while claiming to support our RKBA, is a fool that knows nothing about either guns, or the Constitution.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Sean Braisted Says:
>September 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
>Now, as for my personal position, I think all weapons,
>sans WMD, should be available to the general public with
>the proper training and licensing. I have no problem with
>someone who undergoes a more stringent background
>check, as well as can provide evidence of the ability to
>properly store their weapons, getting a long range .50
>caliber weapon.
>
>I just think more dangerous weapons (as defined by
>their ability to kill multiple people from longer
>distances) should be more stringently regulated than
>a 12 gauge shotgun or BB Gun.
Now, as for MY personal position, I think that some media should be available to journalist/reporters with the proper training and licensing. I have no problem with journalists who undergoes a more stringent background check, as well as can provide evidence of their ability to properly store it, being allowed to own a computer.
I just think that more dangerous writing/communicating devices(as defined by their ability to communicate with larger audiences) should be more stringently regulated then a pencil, pen, or paper.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Guys, you’re missing the easy one if you want to claim Obama would ban hunting guns. Why would a 6 round tube magazine semi-auto shotgun not be a popular hunting gun?
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Thirdpower essential has the crux of it. The details didn’t and don’t matter. It was an anti-gun bill that had the support of the usual suspects and as such supporting it served his purposes.
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Hmmmm.
Soooooo. When Obama says he doesn’t have the “votes”.
Was that an admission that he spent time finding out?
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Robb, I lurve you, in a decent and manly way. You just promulgated the same definition of a gun I did, i.e. a tube capable of withstanding a bunch of internal pressure which is open at one end, and mostly closed at the other end with arrangements for setting off chemical reactions which quickly make large volumes of gases at the mostly-closed end.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:45 am
You know, for someone who frequently gives me grief for allegedly misusing the term “straw man,” you sure do a fine job of misusing it in this post, Unc. 🙂
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:13 am
And Obviously Sean likes playing the numbers game.
.50 BMG BADDD….but let’s say I minted a new cartridge: The .499 WB (Parent cartridge the .50 BMG necked down from 0.511″ to 0.499″) is totally safe and will NEVER be banned.
Much like here in Mass a S&W M&P with a 10 round magazine is totally safe…but if I got my hands on a 11 or 12 round magazine I’m suddenly DANGEROUS.
Also, Sean, you do prove you know very little of shotguns. #1 names are meaningless…is that a Semi-auto AK-47? Nope its a WASR-10, or a MAC-90! Is this a .50 BMG rifle? No NO! Its just my 29 Gauge Shotgun with a rifled barrel!
And Sean you definitely need to look a little deeper into the niche market of rifled shotgun barrels and specialty slugs. This bill WOULD ban shotguns.
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:42 pm
“should be available to the general public with the proper training and licensing. I have no problem with someone who undergoes a more stringent background check, as well as can provide evidence of the ability to properly store their weapons,”
Sean, the problem with this statement is simple. Anti-gun politicians like Obama will simply make the “proper training and licensing” so onerous, so expensive, the process so convoluted, that it will amount to a de-facto ban. We’ve seen evidence of this time and time again. They’ll just enact regulation upon regulation until they’ve regulated the right out of existence.