The wrong end of a gun
Some bloggers and others are describing what it was really like to find themselves being robbed at gunpoint. It’s probably a good idea to read those accounts before forming an opinion about how a person can be expected to react.
Les has a round-up. Fact is, you don’t know what you’ll do. Too much to consider and lose. If I was robbed, I’d just hand over my wallet. If I were in fear for my life, that’s a different story.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:46 am
And part of me wants to vehemently disagree with you.
You are implicitly granting the thug the right to your wallet by not resisting. If, like the old days, all I had was cash in my wallet, maybe – why kill over a measly $20?. But in my wallet there are credit cards, insurance cards, dental, my CCW, and other items that give the crook more than just cash.
Yeah, I can cancel my credit cards, but I can’t cancel my home address. I can’t cancel the fact that just having that credit card and my drivers license helps the thief in stealing other things in my name or, worse, helps them ‘become me’.
And by simply submitting, I implicitly give in to petty tyranny. The criminal gets away with it (chances of being caught aren’t that great) and will move on to terrorizing others, quite possibly coming to my house out of anger that I canceled the credit cards.
If I could discern intent, then it would be a moot point. But someone who is willing to steal from you, especially by threatening you physically if you don’t comply, probably is willing to go through with the threat. So in essence, simply pulling a knife and demanding my wallet is, in my mind, always a threat to my life, both immediate and long term.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
I was robbed at gunpoint in 2000. I left a bar with a woman and headed down the block. A man rounded the corner. He had a handkerchief over his face and was holding a small, short-barrel handgun (in my memory it looks a lot like my friends tiny 9mm, but it was dark and stressful, so I can’t really vouch for that). He walked up fast and said “Don’t look at my face!”
He really didn’t have to worry because I was staring at the gun. I knew it was loaded by the way he refused to point it at us. It was angled just off us and downward. He was a big guy. I don’t think he needed the gun to mug us.
“Give me your wallet!” He held his hand out, palm up. My friend immediately complied, but I was reluctant. I had about $700 on me and some plane tickets and such. I really didn’t want this guy to clean me out. So I put my hand in my pocket and peeled off a couple bills. I put them in his hand.
Again, he said “Give me your wallet!” So I put my hand in my pocket and peeled off a couple bills. I was wondering how long it would take for him to catch on, but I also figured that the longer I could drag this out the more likely he was to just leave with what he got. As a mugger with a gun, his interest is getting what he can as quick as he can without anybody getting hurt.
Then I realized that what I’d put in his hand wasn’t just money. It included a blank check. “Wait, wait, I need some of that back,” I said. I reached into his open palm and took back everything that wasn’t cash. My friend looked at me like I was insane.
The guy told us to turn around and run. “I’m going to count to three and start shooting.” We turned around and walked away. I was pretty calm. “Transaction over,” I thought. “As far as muggings go, that wasn’t too bad.”
“I said RUN!” he shouted. We ran three steps and then I grabbed the girl and pulled us behind a van and down to the ground. We sat there for a minute and by the time we looked up, he was long gone.
It wasn’t until a few minutes later, as the adrenaline left us that we were scared and shakey. And then we were very scared and shakey.
Ironically, I’ve lived in NY my whole life and never been successfully mugged. Three weeks in New Orleans, and I turn into a victim. It’s all about being aware of your environment, and in a strange town the cues didn’t register. I didn’t realize I shouldn’t have been on that block at that time of night.
I was in town doing pro bono criminal defense work (death penalty stuff), and I’m sure that somewhere somebody is laughing at me, the lefty New York defender of criminals who gets mugged while on a crusade to save the world.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Sounds like carrying a fake wallet may be useful…
April 26th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Sounds like carrying a fake wallet may be useful…
The “throw away” wallet is a good gambit. It looks like a lot of cash but it is a twenty on each end with ones in the middle. No credit cards or ID. If you want to make it really good have some fake pictures and stuff to make it look authentic. It sucks that this is even necessary.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I wouldn’t hand over a wallet. Too much stuff in there. The primary target is cash, so give them cash. I’m a little disorganized, so I usually carry fifty bucks in my pocked and keep the bulk of my money in the wallet. Remember they need to get in and out as quickly as they can.
I have a friend, Lenny, who got mugged a few years ago in Hell’s Kitchen. He was in his mid 50’s at the time, a gimpy, frail guy. I hear he was a tough kid (survived being thrown off the roof of a building), but that was a long time ago.
He was walking down the block, a young, strong man walked up, put his right arm around Lenny’s shoulder and said give me your wallet. Lenny said “You gotta be kidding me.” The guy pushed his right arm forward and slammed his left fist up. Broke Lenny’s jaw on both sides.
Ever since he flew off that building, Lenny was a hard-luck case, living on government support, so he only had a few dollars on him. Broken jaw versus 3 bucks? Lenny shouldn’t have even hesitated.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Robb, it’s not worth it to kill someone over the minimal amount of cash I carry.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Robb, I think a person faced with a “your money or your life” situation is morally justified in killing in self-defense. There’s no guarantee the guy will let you keep your life after you give him your money.
The question is whether that’s always practical. The other guy may simply get the drop on you. In that case it’s your judgement as to whether or not you’re going to try to take him, either with a gun or bare-handed. Should you? I don’t know. I’m not there, you are, you’re the one who can see his eyes and hear his voice, and I’m not in a hurry to second-guess your decision either way.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
If he fronts you, he intends to hurt you or kill you if necessary, the victim just doesn’t know where the bar of necessity is in the assailant’s mind.
If he is stealing from me, out of my car, out of my shed, etc. he gets the cops called on him and he gets away. I wouldn’t shoot him even if he took my new car. If he fronts me of my family I assume he is willing to do us harm and I will kill him if I can. Has absolutely nothing to do with the money.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Someone who is willing to threaten my life over two dollars has lost any right he thought he had to live. Complying is no guarantee of safety.
James Kleck has already tabulated the numbers on this.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff_table7.html
If you silently pull out your own firearm and start blazing away, your risk of serious injury drops from 12.6% for cooperation, to 8.6%.
The safest option during a robbery is to simply shoot the robber without any warning.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
There’s no assurances that the creep will leave once he or she has your money. They’re just as full of adrenaline as you are, have the advantage, and aren’t exactly known for their ability to plan ahead. Chances are they’ll at least let you run, but there are still arseholes around that’ll take your money, let you turn around, and shoot you in the back of the head.
As a side-note, I strongly recommend against putting your cards and checks in the same holder as your bills. Not only does it make it harder to come out of a mugging with your identity, you end up an easier target for a pickpockets and countless other smaller dangers.
I don’t recommend fighting over a billfold. No matter how much is in your wallet, it isn’t worth the time and money you’d spend dealing with the results. That said, don’t expect the fight to be just over the billfold.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
What are these checks you speak of?
April 26th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Kristopher:
“The safest option during a robbery is to simply shoot the robber without any warning.”
Assuming he doesn’t have the drop on you. And of course, assuming you have a gun available at the time. Not everyone is going to (me included – I don’t carry 24x7x365).
That study is interesting. Note that in the cases where the good guy doesn’t have a weapon and attacks the bad guy the injury rate was 52.1% (and 41.9% with a non-firearms weapon). Not encouraging stats for trying to take down an armed bad guy w/o a gun.
April 26th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Oddly, I had a dream last night that woke me up at 3:26.
The dream / nightmare was that I was mugged in my driveway.
The part that bugged me was that I was unprepared and had to give him my stuff.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
I carry a gun behind my wallet. Complying and drawing are one and the same.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
My wife’s wallet was stolen by a pick-pocket, and the primary target wasn’t cash, it was credit cards. They had used a credit card to buy a large department store gift card within less than 45 minutes of the pilfering.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
I think I have a great new product.
A fake credit card. Looks real but it is completely worthless. The magnetic strip calls the cop when it is scanned.
I think modern day thieves want the credit card more than they want cash.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
I’m like Jim W. I carry at 3:30 / 4:00 position so getting my wallet is the same as getting my gun. And I practice like heck getting it out and getting off a shot. Now that’s not to say I’d do it, there are a lot of things you have to think about. At that close of range, a shot from a 10mm could easily go through the assailant. What’s behind him? Does he appear to have a good grasp of the gun (not shaking, aimed COM, etc). Is my wife or others with me (I wouldn’t risk their lives. Mine? I’m ok with that risk).
Again, it’s not just the cash. If I refuse to give it to him or when he finds I don’t carry any cash (I’m married) he may try to kill me or at least hurt me. I’m not going down without a fight.
April 27th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
even though his gun is already out, if you are good it is possible to draw and fire first. However, that does not mean he won’t fire. So move as you draw and fire. It must be simultaneously, though,or you lose the slight edge lag time gives you.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
SA, I’m pretty good at a few slight of hand tricks with coins. I’ve gotten so good at a few of them that I don’t even have to worry about the viewer’s position. So, with practice, I now can move a coin from one hand to the other slowly. It is the slow speed that “sells” the trick. No sudden movements to draw your eyes to where the transfer is taking place.
I do the exact same thing with the “Here. Take my wallet” draw. I twist my body slightly to hide my hip, use my left hand to move my shirt out of the way (looks like I’m simply holding my belt to facilitate getting the wallet), lift up on the pistol and, since I’m already a little “twisted” I use my own body to conceal the weapon from sight until it is in place. When I straighten up, the pistol is out, arm at the side, and I get off a shot. Since it’s point shooting, I can’t guarantee a hit, but I can buy myself that extra second to then dodge and attempt to get another shot off.
I practice this every time I remove my gun when at home. I don’t sit around all night thinking of ways to do this, I just determined that it’s a good way to help in case someone gets the drop on me.