Don’t scare err annoy white people
In your face
So, a bunch of smug people decide every once in a while to clog streets and intersections in major metropolitan areas. The folks at Critical Mass want you to know how hip and green they are so much so that they’re willing to be total assholes about it. So, like a bunch of open carry activists, they decide to be a minor curiosity to your otherwise uneventful day. Now, I appreciate the plight of the Heck’s Angels but can you guys be, say, less douchebaggy about it?
In New York, such douchebaggery got one Heck’s Angel face-planted. Now, being a douchebag is typically not a face-plant worthy offense. Still, I can’t help holding back a minor giggle while wagging my shaming finger at the officer involved. Said officer who should be charged with assault.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
That shitbag cop will be losing his job….he’s still on probation. So, the culture in NY is that rookie cops should act tough and pull shit like that on demonstrators? So they’re douchebags….so what. They have the right to demonstrate without getting beat to shit. Cops like this are who help to create the us vs them mentality that so many people have. Hopefully he’ll be sweeping floors at the Heck’s Angels meeting hall sometime soon.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Douchebaggery. That’s fantastic!
I would love to put myself in situations where i can use that word at least 5-10x per day. Unfortunately, moving to the Distrikt of Kolumbia is not on my to-do list.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Well, you pretty much summed up my feelings on this incident as well. There may be more to the cops story than we are hearing however.
July 30th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
“the bicyclist was arrested and held for 26 hours for assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest.”
I noticed on the vid that the 2 cops were looking down the street like they were looking for someone. Plus several other bicyclists passed real close to the 2 cops and the cops did nothing to them. Maybe the cyclist who got shoved off did something a few blocks away and would’nt stop when asked to?
It didnt look random to me.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
me either. Personally I tend to go behind people moving right to left when I am on a bike, but the cop did have intention for that cyclist. Also notice that some one stands the perps bike up and rides off with it.
I suspect that something other than what the videographer tried to convey happen, happened.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Well, he’ll have plenty of time in front of the review board to explain why he knocked the guy off the bike in defense of his job. I wouldn’t hold my breath.
If the cyclist had done something untoward moments earlier and was essentially fleeing from the police in such a way to justify getting knocked off his bike, it sure doesn’t look like it. The guy was riding pretty nonchalantly and not obviously trying to get away from the officer.
It looks like the cop just lost his cool and belted an unsuspecting cyclist.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=76&sid=76619
“But the pro-bicyclist group Critical Mass showed their true colors when their riders attacked the man on Capitol Hill while he was still sitting in the car with his wife. How come no other Critical Mass riders intervened to stop the assault? Why was the driver’s car window smashed in the heat of the moment?”
July 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Guy’s it’s real simple. The two cops confer. They let four riders with helmets pass. Then they send the guy without a helmet for a crash.
I could almost support an attempted murder charge on this one, if I could prove that they targeted the guy without a helmet.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Cactus Jack Says:
Sebastian-PGP Says:
Hmm, the guy could have done something to deserve this, or it could have been a case of mistaken identity. Here’s what the ex-cop testified to saying (via):
So here’s a wild-ass guess. The cop gets a radio report of someone deserving arrest. He guesses wrong, and tackles an innocent man. Later, her gets his story straight with his co-cops.Because this guy was arrested without cause, if the police just dropped the charges, he’d have cause to sue. The police decide that it’s just easier to fabricate some charges, and then let the guy plead no contest and leave with time served. The police officer lies on the stand. Then the video comes out that shows a bit of the truth. NYPD is forced to fire the rookie officer.
July 30th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Uncle slams Critical Mass riders as douche bags (wow, I hate that juvenile term and wish it would return to the confines of the 6th grade playground) and assholes. I wonder how many critical mass rides he’s been on and how many critical mass riders he knows. I’m guessing not too many.
The point of critical mass is not to clog the streets, at least not for the participants I’ve spoken to. The point is to make biking visible, to show bikes moving smoothly through the city. And, yeah, the rides don’t stop for lights (hence the clogging), but that’s not the *goal* of the ride for anybody I know.
In a lot of places (e.g. Brooklyn) the police cork the cross streets to make it easier, faster and safer for the riders to run those red lights. The ride doesn’t have to be antagonistic. In fact, it’s just a nice fun ride usually.
Second, the police in Manhattan have been randomly beating critical mass riders (including law-abiding riders) for years now. There are multiple lawsuits and investigations related to this. Essentially, the police are being assholes (big surprise). Only difference is that this time there is video.
Third, if you want to see how fun and non-aggro a critical mass ride can be, come to Brooklyn. Like most media stereotypes, the one of angry cyclists out to prove a point by messing with cars is false. Kinda like how not all open carry is an in-your-face political statement.
Heck, here’s an open invitation: to anybody who is ever in brooklyn, I will provide you with a bike and take you on a critical mass ride.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
But that’s generally what they end up doing, the handful of times I’ve read about them. I’m glad the group does not encourage the behavior and I hope their lawsuits agains police violence are successful.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
I’m with Cactus Jack on this one. And to a large degree with Standard Mischief. I think the cop just screwed up on his report. It happens all the time. They’re not Hemingways to begin with and then they have only so much time to do the paper in-between booking the prisoner and reporting to their supervisor and a shift change and assist calls, etc.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I’m no fan of Critical Mass, I think they’re annoying—but that’s irrelevant.
What’s funny, yet hardly surprising, is that in addition to arresting the victim of the attack, Officer Pogan filed a criminal complaint against the rider and claimed he drove his bike into the officer’s body, knocking him to the ground and causing cuts.
Well, of course, then the video surfaced with clearly shows the officer took the initiative to knock over the rider, not the other way around, and that the officer never sustained a fall at all. Even funnier is the PBA’s defense of the officer:
“Instead of slowing down or stopping as any reasonable person would when an officer approached, this rider dropped his shoulder in an attempt to avoid arrest by plowing into the officer’s chest, which resulted in the officer pushing him away.” (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07302008/news/regionalnews/cop_unions_spin_on_bike_tackler_122209.htm)
HAHAHAHA …. are you fucking serious? The officer trying to cover his own ass before the videotape surfaced is one thing, but making an absurd claim like that AFTER the video clearly shows nothing of the sort is ridiculous.
Remember: only police should have guns.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
nk, did the cop also just innocently “screw up on his report” when he claimed that the rider knocked him to the ground?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
BTW, critical mass is an event, not a group. There is no such entity as critical mass. It’s a gathering that happens by social convention. There aren’t leaders or positions or anybody who can define what the event is or is about. Critical mass is a bike ride taken by whoever shows up that day. It’s different people each time, and even the regulars miss a lot of rides. This crowd has no intentions– it’s just a bunch of people, each with their own views.
Because of this, a few miscreants get more attention than they deserve. Lots of people claim to speak for “the group.” Me, I’m just reporting what me and my friends are up to.
BTW, I know a guy who was arrested at a critical mass ride for reciting the first amendment. The charge was harassing a public official.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
When Official Truth Collides With Cheap Digital Technology
New York Times.
It has this item and several other items where the police fabricate shit and the video tape shows a different story.
July 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Standard Mischief, add to that this recent incident from NYC:
July 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
P.S. And of course, now police are harassing the business owner’s whose surveillance tapes showed that they framed the suspects.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
BH says:
Yea, and that’s pretty much why it drives the pigs bat-shit insane. I’m far from supporter, but I do have some begrudging respect for the tactics. (and I really ought to make a blog post out of this but whatever)
Problem: Protests without a permit (i.e. advance permission slip from the state to protest) are not allowed to walk in the street
Solution: Become traffic by riding bikes
Problem:Leaders of an organization can be selectively targeted, harassed or threatened by the state
Solution:make it a non-organization, without leaders that can be targeted.
Problem:Police prefer having a “flight plan” filed so they know where to put resources, where to put police barricades, and how to best control the area
Solution:Consensus determines when and where the ride starts, whoever is in the lead determines where the mass goes. Because there’s not any hidden advance planning, police can’t place or blackmail someone into being an informant.
Problem:Large groups of people are not allowed to assemble without a permit
Solution:Technically, a group isn’t assembling, it’s a mass of individuals exercising their rights to travel freely throughout the country.
You’ll see similar tactics with the Rainbow Family and with Anonymous (the non-group that’s currently tangling with the damn Scientologists.)
July 30th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
“I wonder how many critical mass rides he’s been on and how many critical mass riders he knows. I’m guessing not too many.”
OK, I’ll play, I’ve been on six or seven Critical Mass rides (in San Francisco, on a fixed gear even…), and I know at least a dozen people who either have participated (or still participate) in Critical mass. I’d say that it’s a safe bet that 70% of the folks on those rides would qualify as complete and total douchebags. I started going on the ride as a leisurely Friday evening ride through downtown with a police escort to keep things flowing. Trouble is, an overwhelming majority of riders had no interest in keeping the ride moving smoothly through downtown. They would routinely stray from the route that police were blocking off, stop in large groups in the middle of intersections to stop traffic, and occasionally wolfpack a motorist who had the temerity to take issue with their shenanigans. These folks weren’t interested in a bike ride, they just wanted to cause problems. Sadly, these people were in the majority on the S.F. ride. After witnessing the abundance of douchebaggery on display on the S.F. rides, I decided that Critical Mass wasn’t something I wanted to participate in.
After I quit riding in Critical Mass, I noticed the behavior of the riders got progressively worse over the years. I remember seeing some bandanna wearing douchebag swing a U-Lock at a pedestrian’s head. What had she done to warrant this? She tried to cross the road through a rather large gap in the ride. The bandanna wearing douchebag was a good thirty feet away from the pedestrian when she was halfway across the road. He saw her, started pedaling faster, and rode straight at her with U-Lock in hand. He took a swing, and missed. Nobody could chase the douchebag as the pack of bikes were in the way. Needless to say, I was disgusted. The Douchebags in Critical Mass motivated me to sell off my fixie, and start riding a motorcycle.
You can keep spouting the Critical Mass party line Hugger, I doubt you’ll convince anyone that it’s a few bad apples giving the ride a bad name. Nobody is going to take that stuff seriously until the riders in Critical Mass start policing their own, and telling the douchebags to get their own damn bike ride. Until then, lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas. If you and your friends aren’t actively trying to kick the douchebags off your ride ,we can only assume that their presence is tolerated by everyone on the ride.
July 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
A large percentage of Crit Mass riders in Seattle are out looking to clog streets and cause an over reaction to their illegal but allowed rides by the Seattle cops for PC reasons. The guy in the car got wacked in the back of the head by a lock on a bike chain, had his tires slashed, all the windows broken out with him and his wife in the car and the body of the car worked over by rocks and bricks. These CM’s have moved from “activists” to home town fasists that terrorize those not of thier “gang”. Unfortunatley in Seattle the City Police and Council worry about plastic bags in stores but look the other way when PC thugs run the streets at will. Count on the fact that they will not face a day in court in Seattle. They will move on next week to a new target and hope for an excuse to assault “car drivers”.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
There is nothing, and there never has been anything, peaceful, or tolerant, or polite, or human rights, or compassionate about hippies/leftists/socialists/Democrats/greens.
Everything they propose and everything they protest for or against is about increasing the levels of coercion in the world.
It’s therefore no surprise, and it’s therefore not news, when a hippie/socialist Democrat/liberal/greenie/bicycle Nazi/anti smoking Nazi attacks someone, or starts a Hummer dealership on fire, or vandalizes a logging camp, or throws blood on someone for wearing a fur, or takes over a college campus, etc., etc.. It’s what they do. If you don’t subscribe to their way of life and their prescriptions for a “better world” you are an infidel, without rights, worthy of nothing but contempt.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Achmed, I can’t speak to the SF rides. I’ve never been on them. Frankly, I’ve heard horror stories about them. But stories about the SF rides don’t jibe with the NYC rides I’ve been on. If the NY rides were full of violent thugs beating people with bike locks, trust me when I say I’d avoid them. I also wouldn’t be happy about my girlfriend going to those rides (especially without me).
Since critical mass doesn’t have a central authority of any kind, the character of any gathering is determined by the people who show up. The more thugs show up, the more decent people stay home. I can see how over time the percentage of thugs could get quite high. Still, that’s never been my experience in NY.
One thing I can say about the Manhattan rides, though, is that the police brutality has changed the character of the rides. Sane people (like me) who want to stay away from asshole cops tend to avoid the Manhattan ride (they go to Brooklyn rides or stay home). If the random arrests keep up, the Manhattan rides might evolve into a ride of people looking to do battle. I can’t imagine that being good for the riders, the police, or the community.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Although not a fan of Critical Mass in general—I’m not so into the idea of them clogging up traffic in a place already clogged like NYC—I do have to say that I haven’t seen the sort of douchebaggery in NYC that I know goes on in some of the other places (SF, etc). The riders move at a fair clip and I’ve never seen one assault a pedestrian or driver or anything like that.
They do make a lot of noise though, and that aggravates me because I’m turning into a grumpy old man.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Since they are NOT a centralized group, there will be a wide variation in their behavior depending on where they are, and you can’t judge Critical Mass as a whole, you can only point out that in some places, they are complete fucking douchebags, but in many places, they are not (That’s probably because NYC is way cooler than SF 🙂
Nobody is calling the shots or dictating behavior.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
I found it amusing when the Critical Mass folks in S.F. would chant “two wheels good, four wheels bad”. It seems that they didn’t fully grok the Orwell they read… The other popular chant was, “share the road” which I found pretty odd coming from folks who were doing nothing of the kind. I particularly liked it when “share the road” would turn on a dime and morph into “whose streets? OUR STREETS!” This would usually happen when they were swarming a car that pissed them off.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Guav-
The frequency with which we see law enforcement caught in the act of citizen abuse on their own (or someone else’s) cam makes you wonder about how much occured before the days of the ubiquitous cam corders.
Between cam corders and Youtube, a cop, like anyone else, can be busted for screwing up.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
“Nobody is calling the shots or dictating behavior.”
And it is precisely this that creates a fertile field for douchebags to blossom. I submit that if you allow douchebags to act out on your bike rides you are condoning said behavior. The douchebags are setting the tone, and by doing nothing to stop them you are essentially approving of what they do. That may not be fair, but that’s the way it is.
July 30th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I couldn’t give a shit about Critical Mass. Good, bad? Either way there is no excuse for a cop to assault someone who had done nothing wrong, there neither is an excuse for his perjury.
It doesn’t matter what one thinks about CM. We have a right to demand better from cops. If we don’t get it, we have a right to take it.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Hmmm.
“Heck, here’s an open invitation: to anybody who is ever in brooklyn, I will provide you with a bike and take you on a critical mass ride.”
You mean it’s fun for you.
Being someone who needs to get somewhere because a critical computer system has crashed and your boss is screaming in your ear because the client is burning a million dollars an hour the system is down.
Then the whole let’s-block-the-damn-streets isn’t precisely quite as amusing.
I propose an experiment. Let’s line up 500 cars to completely block a side street and then require you Critical Mass bike riders to traverse said side street or else you cannot move.
And then leave you like that.
Good times. Gooooooood times.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Achmed, I agree with you completely. And yes, on a city level, the members of CM who allow the douchebags to set the tone don’t have room to complain when people have a bad perception of them.
What I am saying is that CM in NYC, for example, has absolutely no control over CM in SF and has no way to “police” the participants out there. That’s all.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Question, and this is not a “gotcha” question or anything, but honest curiosity.
If you were the rider — and were carrying, legally — would you have opened fire on the cop if it were possible, at any time? If so, when and under what circumstances?
If you were another rider, or someone passing by, and you saw the cop beating this guy, would you have opened fire on the cop? If so, when and under what circumstances?
I really am curious — would you ever blow away a police officer who is threatening you or someone else?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I’m sorely tempted to go to the local DC one that meets at Dupunt Circle every first Friday at 5pm.
I mean, here I am talking trash about the Critical mAssholes and I have absolutely zero first hand experience. However, I have been reviewing a few vids on YouTube and all the ones I see that are not heavily edited clearly show a mass of riders running lights and spread out among all possible lanes, sometimes even the lanes for the opposite direction. Way to share the road mAssholes.
I’m pretty sure that my first CM ride will promptly end at the first red stop light, but if I’m getting the whole Critical scene totally wrong, be sure and step in and say something BH.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Memomachine, if you’re worried about traffic, I invite you to look at this. It is somewhat exaggerated since it assumes one person per car, but the average is probably not *much* higher than that.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:47 am
Sorry Hugger, sitting in Seattle, I can honestly and knowledgably put into writing that the Massers here on the west coast are complete douchebags. They treat these events as some sort anarchist riot bike-fest.
Every ride in Seattle erupts into a problem because the Massers here like to hold their rides on Fridays at rush hour, when everyone is either going to the bars or trying to get home from work and the streets are clogged with vehicles.
The only reasons these pricks don’t have to get a permit to hold their events is because our idiot Mayor loves him some bicycles and there aren’t enough police officers to arrest all of the riders who damage vehicles and assault pedestrians. So they let them go about their property destruction and running down of folks on foot without bothering them, simply because it is easier to ignore the letters to the editor in the newspapers than to listen to their Masser’s lawyers bitch and moan (oddly enough, some of the Masser lawyers were also WTO protester’s lawyers).
I’m normally steadfastly against the need for a permit to gather, but their prior behaviors have shown them to be violent and destructive. If these groups cannot show some sort of central management with insurance to pay for the security, as well as all the private property damage they cause, then they should not be allowed. In fact, I’d go so far as to have them arrested at their gathering point on some sort of rioting charges.
There are two slogans of the Seattle Massers, the first of which is “Move Fucker!”. Said at top volume to pedestrians as the cyclists switch from street to sidewalk. The other is the sound of an uncovered metal handlebar-end scraping along the side of your car.
July 31st, 2008 at 1:29 am
Guav, I realize that S.F is at the extreme end of Critical Mass douchebaggery, so I bring it up as a cautionary tale. The S.F. ride didn’t start out like that, but when you have an event where nobody is calling the shots or dictating behavior you’re going to attract jerks with chips on their shoulders. The NYC ride might not have achieved the legendary levels of douchebaggery that SF has attained, but are you honestly trying to tell me the ride is jerk free?
Hugger said that the sane folks avoid the Manhattan ride (because of heavy handed cops), so if this is true who is going on this particular ride? Seems to me that people who go out on this particular ride do so knowing that confrontation with police is likely. As such, it seems to me that this particular ride is going to attract folks who are progressively more and more confrontational. If the Manhattan ride becomes a incubator for douchebaggery (and my SF experience suggests to me that it eventually will), expect the Brooklyn ride to be tarred with the same brush. Again, it’s not exactly fair, but that’s the way it is.
Mind you, I’m not defending NYPD here. What the cop did in the clip seems to be way out of line, and if he’s found guilty he should get the full measure of punishment allowed by law.
July 31st, 2008 at 1:39 am
I see we have learned exactly nothing from calling that Kynn person names instead of dealing with *her* douchebaggery.
I used to live in NYC and I spent a decade as a bike messenger, complete with the broken clavicle to show for my trouble. I’ve seen this stuff from the NYPD long before there was any such thing as Critical Mass. Back in the day, it was open season on messengers, every day in the afternoon when we were getting to the peak of rush deliveries.
Here’s a thread on a forum for NYPD officers, run by an ex-cop:
http://theerant.yuku.com/topic/7789/t/Video-shows-NYPD-cop-assaulting-cyclist.html
Read it and weep, all you guys who think that CM is what you’ve read in an article or two. Is there idiocy? Sure is, that’s why I found something else to do on those nights, like working late. Lots of alcohol, lots of pot, lots of idiots looking to cause a bit of trouble. That does not excuse being assaulted by an officer. Period.
And look at the video again. They weren’t standing there by accident. NYPD doesn’t just stand in the street. They were looking for a target to take down, one who was riding in Condition White. At the very beginning there was a guy riding one-handed while using a video camera. An easy target, and they let him go by. The victim was tactically unaware. FYI, if you ever find yourself in this kind of situation, wait until Officer Krupke commits to a direction, wait about a second, and swerve around the other way. Works every time. I didn’t escape messengering both alive and without a record by being stupid.
July 31st, 2008 at 2:05 am
“Is there idiocy? Sure is, that’s why I found something else to do on those nights, like working late. Lots of alcohol, lots of pot, lots of idiots looking to cause a bit of trouble. That does not excuse being assaulted by an officer. Period.”
Well Peter, that would depend on the nature of the trouble these folks were out to cause, wouldn’t it? I’ve seen first hand behavior at the S.F. Critical Mass ride that would warrant getting beat down by a cop (see the U-Lock incident I posted above for starters). It would seem that in the case of this particular video that the cop in question is clearly in the wrong. Again, if he’s found guilty I hope they throw the book at him.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:19 am
Achmed,
First off, SF is not NYC. Conflating the two doesn’t work. Secondly, how does childish behavior by a bunch of cyclists justify the video you saw? I assure you, what that PO did is a lot more the norm than the exception.
And my understanding of that incident in SF was that the lock swinging douche was turned in by the other riders that were there. This was in 2005, right?
The NYPD are supposed to be the grown-ups. The majority of CM riders are lefty peacenik types, and that’s the only reason gunfire hasn’t broken out. Certainly not because the NYPD hasn’t been asking for it.
July 31st, 2008 at 10:55 am
“First off, SF is not NYC. Conflating the two doesn’t work. Secondly,”
It doesn’t really matter where the event is being held, sooner or later it attracts douchebags. As you stated yourself, you avoid the ride because of chemically addled douchebags who are looking for trouble. The main difference between S.F. and NYC on this particular matter seems to be that NYPD is less inclined to put up with the ride.
“Secondly, how does childish behavior by a bunch of cyclists justify the video you saw?”
Dude, did you read what I wrote? I said (twice) that if the cop in the video is found guilty he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Childish behavior doesn’t justify a beat down, but CRIMINAL behavior might. I thought I was pretty clear on this…
“And my understanding of that incident in SF was that the lock swinging douche was turned in by the other riders that were there. This was in 2005, right?”
Nope, it was 2001, and the riders did nothing to either stop the douchebag, or turn him in. There have been numerous lock swinging incidents on the S.F. ride, this was just one I saw with my own two eyes. I’ve never heard of S.F. C.M. riders turning in one of their own. Not saying it didn’t happen, just that I’ve never heard of such a thing happening. Again, if they did turn the douche in, it was the exception rather than the rule.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:13 pm
If you are even in a tide of CM’s one of the fav tactics in Seattle is for forward riders to distract drivers and then one or two will corouch down behind the rear of an SUV (all of which they have vowed to destroy) hoping that the driver will back up trying to get away and bump the CM’s which will of course justify a vehicle vandalism spree and beat down of the driver and passenger while wailing to PC Sea Cops that they arre the victims. Turning around the question of fireing on a cop in NY how bout firing on a CM who is swinging a heavy bike lock on a chain at your head??
July 31st, 2008 at 12:56 pm
“This was in 2005, right?”
Nope, it was 2001, and the riders did nothing to either stop the douchebag, or turn him in. There have been numerous lock swinging incidents on the S.F. ride, this was just one I saw with my own two eyes. ”
OK, I paid no attention to CM until the last year I was in NYC, and there was a lock swinging incident in March 2005 (IIRC) and the cyclo-douche (I want credit for the new word!) was turned in. Somehow I’m not surprised that this wasn’t the first time.
And I don’t mean to argue with you, Achmed. My dander is up and fluttering because 1) this is pretty typical of the NYPD vs. folks who aren’t connected, and 2) the PO will likely walk after some slap on the wrist, and likely keep his job, especially since he’s third generation. Pah.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“The point of critical mass is not to clog the streets”
You’ve never seen one. That’s the only purpose.
The way to put a stop to this crap is for some driver to floor it and take out five or six.
July 31st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“Turning around the question of fireing on a cop in NY how bout firing on a CM who is swinging a heavy bike lock on a chain at your head??”
It was an observation, not an endorsement for any shooting, OK? NYPD, not unlike ATF, has a documented history of ignoring court orders and decisions that they don’t like. They’ve been told about doing this sort of stuff many times, and this is based on my own knowledge as of the time I moved away in February 2006, and I don’t know about anything since then.
Getting back to the general purpose of this ‘blog, guns and gun rights, this is an example of what happens when the City/Police are the only ones who are armed. They don’t necessarily have to be nice or follow the law that they enforce on others, because there isn’t any credible cost to them. Considering all the other stuff that goes on in NYC, this isn’t the worst thing and not having a police force would be a lot worse, so no shooting cops.
July 31st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Might be more careful about what you wish for…..
July 31st, 2008 at 4:37 pm
“Might be more careful about what you wish for…..”
That doesn’t make any sense.
July 31st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Kynn: unless a reasonable person would think that the cop intends to perform murder or permanently maim you, resisting a cop is just a bad idea and against the law. Police need to be able to make arrests without violence if at all possible.
The proper way to handle this is to just surrender, and let the lawyers sort it all out.
Unless I thought the cop was going to simply kill the person outright, or cripple him, I would take pictures, and call the cops myself, but not intervene. If I thought the cop was going to murder the person, I might react differently.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:11 pm
I see we have learned exactly nothing from calling that Kynn person names instead of dealing with *her* douchebaggery.
Peter, I’m pretty sure that Mr. Uncle will step in and stop people from saying nasty things about millions of people. 🙂
Kynn: unless a reasonable person would think that the cop intends to perform murder or permanently maim you, resisting a cop is just a bad idea and against the law. Police need to be able to make arrests without violence if at all possible.
Kristopher, thanks for answering! I am trying to understand the gun owner mentality, and I appreciate you responding with an honest answer.
Do most of you guys agree with this answer, in general?
Honestly, I thought that part of the argument for gun ownership was self-defense from the state. It’s hard to reconcile that with resisting a cop being “a bad idea” — if the cop is doing something wrong.
If I thought the cop was going to murder the person, I might react differently.
If you thought the cop were going to murder someone, would you kill the cop instead? (I’m assuming, in this case, that you’re not the target of the officer’s wrath.)
August 1st, 2008 at 12:52 am
No you wouldn’t. Read how many here have no problem with what the cop did because they have personal heartburn with CM. Not much support for rights and honest policing.