The only convincing case for a manual safety I’ve considered
I’ve been reading the Practical Guide To Everyday Carry Gear and it’s a good read. In chapter one, there’s, basically, an interview with Massad Ayoob discussing carrying firearms. The usual stuff, reiterated as Mas can, about don’t skimp on a holster and make sure you get a good stiff belt. He actually recommends the Wilderness Belt. I prefer The Best Belt, the Hellweg dress belt, or the various Galco belts because they look like belts you’d wear around the office and not a belt worn by a tacticool operator operating in operations. But back to manual safeties.
Mas stated that guns with such safeties can aid in mitigating gun grabs. Seems a study was done of people with varying degrees of gun familiarity. In the study, a gun was placed on a table and they were to pick it up and fire at a target as quickly as they could. They used two guns: a .38 revolver and a 1911. With the revolver, folks could get a shot off, on average, in just over one second. With the 1911 and it’s manual safety, the average was just shy of 17 seconds. That’s a lot of time to respond to a gun grab.
Update: I’ve never been one for manual safeties on handguns. Don’t pull the trigger, it doesn’t go bang. And I like the point and click interface.
January 25th, 2012 at 10:59 am
The Best Belt! Rock on!
January 25th, 2012 at 11:06 am
I wonder what would happen if they re-ran that test with an H&K P7M8?
January 25th, 2012 at 11:11 am
With all due respect to Mas’ philosophy, as a Cop, Weapon Retention is probably closer on his Radar than what the Armed Citizen needs to worry about. Due to the higher possibility of Goblins trying to take away LEO’s guns (because the Police have much more “intimate contact’ with the Bad Guys on a Daily Basis) makes this a valid argument. And we know that the Israelis like to teach that all pistols should be carried in Condition 3, just in case they get snatched.
Also, the Sig Decocker system came about as partial answer to the Safety on/Safety Off issue for the German Police, and the chance to reduce AD’s while Covering/Re-holstering.
Also, a lot of Goblins out there like to use Glocks for their Simplicity.
But as an Armed Citizen, the fact that one could probably go through one’s Life w/o having to use the Pistol one has been carrying for years, I think it’s more important to keep one’s Booger Finger off the Trigger Switch rather than worry about whether one should get rid of their Gun just because it doesn’t have a Manual Safety. Unless one is using a 1911 or wants to have the Safety on their pistol in the “On” position, of course. It’s a Free Country for most of us.
Personally, I’m happy with my old DAO 3rd. Gen Smith, and if/when I upgrade, it’ll probably be a Smith M+P w/o a Manual Safety. YMMV, of course.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:19 am
I like Tam’s phrase of “Risk Stacking”. Each person has to deal with the series of risks that they’re comfortable with.
For people like me who are overly sensitive to putting their nasal debris removal tool near the loud switch, the manual safety doesn’t mean anything. For others, it might make the difference between deciding to carry and not. To each his own and I’m more interested in having people do what they think is right for them vs. trying to have them do things in the ONE AND TRUE WAY!
Now, if a manual safety increases Time From Grab To Lead Dispensing, it also increases Time From Draw To Lead Dispensing. Just something to consider in your Risk Stack.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:20 am
I’d like to see that test redone with the addition of a Beretta/S&W-style safety pistol and a Glock-style “Safe Action” pistol….
January 25th, 2012 at 11:25 am
Not with training. Mas also points out that most draw and fire records have been set with 1911s.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:35 am
I prefer a manual safety because my first pistol was/is a Government Model 1911A1 (my first firearm purchase over 40 years ago). I like the external safety on my HK Compact .45 USP, too.
That said, the lack of an external safety on my Glock 19 and Ruger 89DC doesn’t really bother me. I’m very careful about placing the booger finger on the bullet launcher level in all cases.
Bottom line — Use what you like, but be absolutely expert with whatever you use.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:38 am
I recall an article Mas did in Combat HG, where they took several non shooters to a range, the test was the same, but they had several different guns, but the results were the same, Sig,Glock,revolvers were around 1-4 seconds, 1911’s, M92’s, Rugers with safeties engaged took an average of 14 seconds.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:39 am
Mas has also spoken praise for Magazine disconnects for the fact that an officer in a struggle for his gun can drop the mag and disable the gun.
I question: (A. How do you know you’re about to lose your gun and still have enough control to dump the mag?
B). if you do dump the mag, but DO manage to regain control of your gun, its little use to you, where’s your advantage now?
C). Considering things like your gun bouncing off the door to your cruiser, and off door frames and such, one might consider the possibility for the mag to bump free and suddenly needing a tap-rack to get the FIRST shot off, which is more Likely?
Mas knows his stuff, and I put his discussion of combat shooting right behind Jeff Cooper…still they do get it wrong from time-to-time.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:45 am
“if a manual safety increases Time From Grab To Lead Dispensing, it also increases Time From Draw To Lead Dispensing.”
that is not correct. employed correctly, the safety comes off as you press out to the target you have already decided to engage.
personally, i choose a 1911 platform for both the retention-advantage cited above and for the added peace of mind it provides upon re-holstering–say what you will about bugger hooks, but many an AD has been caused by something other than a finger engaging a trigger when sliding a safety-less gun back into a holster.
January 25th, 2012 at 11:53 am
you don’t, but in the event you CAN get the mag out you can “give” the mag-less gun to the bad guy.
the point is not for you to continue to fight for a deactivated gun. as long as the bad guy thinks he has a working gun when in fact he does not, YOU have the advantage. so use the time you just bought to either get to your BUG or pick up any other weapon.
January 25th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
17 seconds from grab to release safety to pulling the trigger?
I don’t buy it.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
If it takes training upon training upon training to properly operate a firearm (i.e. you gotta practice snicking off the safety upon draw), you can bet your sweet bippers that 90% of the gun owners out there can’t do it correctly under pressure. Sure, you can do it because you train with your firearm and you’re smart, and beautiful, and gosh darn it, people like you. But most people purchase a gun, take it to the range a few times, then hope that’s enough to get them through the day.
It doesn’t matter that world records have been set with 1911s. I guarantee you the vast majority of man kind doesn’t hold that record and that it required years and years and years of constant training.
And Chris, I can believe it. Nothing like watching someone (including yourself) do a complete brain meltdown when something doesn’t go exactly as they think it should. Take for example my wife’s car. I get in, I give the key a quick twist, the car won’t start, and I sit there for 5 seconds before I realize her car isn’t mine with its fancy electronic starting and I have to hold it down.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:34 pm
As a side note, I own and have competed with a 1911 with a manual safety. I practiced snicking the safety off during the draw and agree 100% that with a modicum of practice it won’t provide a barrier to rapid metal deployment.
January 25th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
chris,
And Pauline Kael didn’t know how Nixon could have won since noone she knew voted for him.
I think we in the gun enthusiast community, meaning the folks who actually study the subject, read the blogs, are members of forums, etc, not just own a gun, tend to unconsciously generalize that experience to the general public.
After all, noone we know isn’t familiar with the two main safety locations and direction of function of each, if in fact they haven’t actually handled an example of each more than once.
Just remind yourself they don’t have to edit the “Jaywalking” bit on the Tonight Show very much. Most people are ignorant (rationally ignorant some would say) of almost evcerything not involved in their daily lives.
That includes even criminals, we train and prepare for the guys from “Heat” but, as we know, most muggers are deterrable with a mere cup of hot coffee. =)
January 25th, 2012 at 6:12 pm
@Kevin Baker – I’ve shot the H&K P7 in many forms, and some of those squeeze cockers are tough. I’d bet on a Corvette running the quarter mile faster than new shooters learning that one.
January 25th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
I would want a manual safety for open carry, since a grab is much more likely, but I roll with no safety for concealed, since a grab is extremely unlikely absent the invitation.
January 25th, 2012 at 7:36 pm
“the average was just shy of 17 seconds”
Apparently some of you have trouble understating how averages aren’t the best statistical indication.
An AVERAGE of 17s could be a study of ten people, and one of them took a few minutes – of dropping the magazine and racking all the rounds out, reloading, using the take down, reassembling, then switching the safety off and firing).
For me to believe 17s, I’d have to see a big study sample and the Mode, not average. Yea, that’s great you have 17s with an idiot, and .5 with anyone else.
January 25th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
I have met a few gangbangers. Most don’t know anything but Glocks or HiPoints. They will pull that trigger two or three times before they realize it didn’t go BANG. And THEN have to look at the gun to see what is wrong. In the mean time don’t just stand there. DO SOMETHING!
January 25th, 2012 at 11:34 pm
I prefer a Browning(PBUH) style safety on my carry gun because it works,for me. I carry, the way I carry, for the safety of others. It should not go bang unless I tell it to. That is because I’m not a gunfighter, or a cop, or (yadda,yadda,etc…). I’m just a guy who has a permit to carry. And, I do my best to not kill innocent people. A gun is not a piece of jewelry. It is a tool. You need to know your tool. Ok, I’m gonna stop typing now, this is going south in soooo many ways.
January 26th, 2012 at 12:02 am
Regarding the HK p7, NJ State Police were issued them years ago. IIRC, on more than one occasion a thug got it away from the officer but couldn’t get it to fire. In one instance the officer got it back and proceeded to demonstrate that, yes, it does go BANG! when you know the weapon.
January 26th, 2012 at 12:19 am
@Other Steve:
I’ve seen video of those tests. They look, and fiddle with everything before stumbling on the correct setup to make them go bang. The more levers/buttons it has, the longer it tends to take. They would be very vulnerable to attack at this point. During a real attack, they can’t waste the time trying to focus on the problem if their target is mobile.
There is video of thugs taking guns off of downed officers and attempting to shoot them. Seems if they can’t make it work within a few seconds (10 seconds was about max, I’m thinking) they move on to other activities.
January 26th, 2012 at 1:00 am
The irony is that if you practice with a manual safety, you might actually be slower with-OUT a safety. Shot a friend’s Glock after being thoroughly indoctrinated in the 1911 manual of arms and i actually paused before shooting because i never felt the “safety” snick off…oh well
@Robb Allan: you may be right–most people do not practice enough to make a manual-safety work in their favor. so yeah, more people buy 1911s than should be running them i guess. and yeah, on a fundamental level that kinda bothers me since not practicing is not practicing (regardless of weapon type).
not sure where i’m going with this other than to say that if you know what your doing, a manual safety is a tremendous advantage…and if you do NOT know what you’re doing–if you’re NOT practicing to the point of not having to think about what your hands are doing–then exactly WHOse best interests are you serving by piloting a device that can deal death with just a finger-twitch?