The manual transmission revisited
Talked about it before but a comment there got me thinking:
Manuals are fun to drive, but they will not accelerate from rest as quickly as an automatic with the same (or similar) gear ratios and a properly spec’d torque converter; they just don’t have the mechanical advantage of the torque multiplication at stall speed. That’s why my daily driver is a manual and my race car is an auto.
That sounds about right. I don’t think, unless I practiced a lot, that I could possibly outshift my tactical car with a manual version. With traction control and computers, it simply performs damn well all alone. No thinking to it, just hit the gas and it shifts perfectly. When you punch it, it’s rather like you’re riding a horse and suddenly someone slapped it hard on the rump. It just goes.
That said, manuals are probably more fun. Sometimes, you just want to down shift into that turn.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:35 am
If you have the money get the paddle shifter?
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:36 am
Let me slap that around a just a tad… In general manual transmissions are lighter and therefore have less rotational mass to get to max speed. They lower the weight of the car increasing the power to weight ratio… Even if it is just milliseconds. Also automatic transmission require more energy to get that torque increase which comes at an expense of increased power consumption.
The reason they are unpopular in racing is that you lose time shifting them unless you have the skills which most people do not… The guy quoted just does not want to admit that he sucks at speed shifting…
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:36 am
Mine has that manumatic thing where I can shift but it’s no where near a true manual.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:39 am
Well, the fastest accelerating cars are automatic (Top Fuel), but not in the traditional sense. The limiting factor at that level is traction. It is becoming rare that both cars in NHRA make it the whole way down the track without someone spinning the tires. The tuner that sets the clutch and brainbox is as important (if not more so) than the driver. If the tuner misses, then it is up to the driver to pedal it to the finish line and keep it out of the wall. I cannot fathom how hard it is too handle a car at 300mph–with 8000hp– when it gets “squirrely”.
For “street” cars though, I disagree. Drivers, power, and traction being equal, manuals usually beat auto’s at the drag strip. I have some experience in that arena.
You can get your engine RPMS much higher for launch with a manual(as high as you want!)than auto. As you mentioned, unless you get a perfect torque converter, horsepower is lost in the fluid.
Lastly, If I am not mistaken, auto drives are a lot heavier, so you have more HP lost to just turning the transmission.
Generally speaking, a manual transmission get the most HP from the engine to the ground.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:45 am
We need the Stig, two cars that only differ in transmission type, and a track.
Honestly, if I was racing I would want an automatic because I haven’t done enough racing to be good with a manual. That said, I know most dragsters(both funny car and top fuel) are manual. Eventually after practice I would want a manual.
I bought a manual for my truck because it’s more durable, and pulling a load down a grade is much harder on an automatic. It just so happens I live next to an 8.5% grade and pulling my boat = going up and down it twice per trip since there’s basically a valley between me and the lake.
The biggest difference between a manual and an automatic is who’s in control. In a manual if you have a good driver you’ll be faster because he can shift the transmission in anticipation. In an automatic it’s purely a reaction based off of current condition. There is no anticipation ability in an auto.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:48 am
John is right, the commenter either doesn’t have the skill, or isn’t “willing to break it”. The best drag drivers powershift (meaning they never let up on the gas when they shift). If you miss a gear, you break something. But man, the difference.
I used to drag race a 650hp 04 Cobra. I ran 7.30’s on the 1/8th mile at Knox Drag (a little slower at 411 because they didn’t track prep for shit), and I was pretty gentle.
I “granny shifted” (let up on the gas between shifts) because it was my daily driver and I didn’t want to break it. When I would let my buddy drive it (it wasn’t his, so he didn’t care to breake it :), he would powershift and run near 7 flat.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:57 am
Apparently this discussion equates racing with drag racing. Piffle. Show me an automatic that can balance weight transfer and rotation in a corner using the throttle, and then you’ll have a point.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:59 am
Keep in mind though that an automatic naturally wants to fall to a fuel efficient/engine saving gear ratio, so when you’re coming from coasting and/or off power to full power, it takes a second to get to the ratio you need, especially if there are a few gears in between the one you’re in and the one you need. With a traditional gated manual, you can skip ratios and go from, for example, 4th to 2nd real fast. Also, the kind of “automatics” that get raced professionally still have a clutch (or two) and no slushy torque converters.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm
I’m going to call bullshit on this one. I have an inexpensive, tiny, lilliputian, two-seater manual that readily outperforms any automatic in either the same price range or the same power output. Of course, I do recognize that there are several metrics that can be used to include or exclude competition.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:09 pm
What year was it made? I always thought that until I got my current car.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Problem is Will the extra gears of the manual allow you to squeeze better fuel economy out of the vehicle that coupled with the energy losses from the automatic easily lead significant fuel economy.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:16 pm
I think a lot of people are comparing manuals to old 3 speed autos. Today’s autos are a far cry from yesterday’s Turbo 350s.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:23 pm
It was a bit of trick statement, Unc. I was referring to my VStar.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Does a bug-eye Sprite need an auto-tranny? Would a Sunbeam Tiger benefit from one? Some Austin-Healey’s had an electric overdrive. Donald Healey drove a prototype version of this car over 200 mph at Bonneville Salt Flats in August of 1956.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:29 pm
I can haul a half ton in my Ford Ranger with a 4 cylinder 5 speed, but Ford does not (or rarely) put a 4 cylinder with an automatic because the performance loss from having to turn the slush box is unacceptable to most people. All else equal, stick is faster.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:34 pm
F-1’s paddle shifters are at the top of the heap. And back a few years ago when the fully programed transmissions were allowed those were even faster.
The human is the slowest part of shifting today, be it a auto, semi-auto or manual.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:48 pm
@7,
The post that generated the discussion spoke of manuals vs auto in repect to acceleration, hence the drag racing discussion.
I don’t know of ANY form of car racing where autos are preferred to manuals, except Drag Racing (and that is only the fastest classes).
F1, Indy, Nascar, all use manuals. Top Fuel Drag uses autos simply because they are at the point were a person cannot react fast enough anymore, and track conditions change minute to minute based on cloud cover. They couldn’t optimize a manual quickly enough to get the best speeds. You can type a command string in the computer quicker than chang a clutch plates to adapt for a 10 degree change in track temp.
I think all the drivers would prefer manual if they could overcome those challenges.
And as Will said, they aren’t automatics in the traditional sense. They have clutches and are much more simlar to “street” manuals than “street” automatics. I don’t think they even have planetary gears, but I could be mistaken.
The only similarity between the auto in John Force’s funny car and your Civic is that a computer controls them both. As for the mechanical components, the stick in your Miata is much more similar to Force’s. And I really don’t know of any other type of “high-end professional racing transmission” OTHER than drag racing.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Had the tiptronic in a mitsubishi eclipse that I owned briefly. Should have got the 6 speed. Might have kept it then.
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:50 pm
All of the amateur road racing groups that I know of (SCCA, CVAR, NASA) require manual transmissions except in cars licensed by handicapped drivers. I’ve made laps at Texas World Speedway with an automatic and with four different manuals (three fours and a five), and the manuals were all faster and easier to control. Straight line and roundy-round do not utilize acceleration, braking, turning (both ways), shifting, and reacceleration the way a road course does. Turn one (left) at TWS can be done at 140 mph; the 14-15-16 combination (left-right-left) at maybe 40 to 50 mph. Automatics don’t know how to down-shift.
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:05 pm
My DSG equiped VW diesel pulls away a bit vs my buddy’s car with manual, AND he’s done tweaks to his.
But the DSG is not a slush box, it’s more or less two manual transmissions, with two clutches, that work as one transmission. Hell of a nice toy. Feels like one of those Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT), you can’t feel the shift points.
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:25 pm
@Texas Jack 1940:
SCCA doesn’t prohibit auto transmissions. Or if they do, they didn’t last year (2011) for Autocross. Or during 2010.
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Sorry. Should have specified road racing. Solo II permits just about anything with four wheels, but a normal solo course is about one minute long, and top speed normally doesn’t exceed 60mph. SCCA no longer sanctions amateur Rallycross (too many injuries), but I think they were mostly manuals, with autos allowed.
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:45 pm
(Obligatory biker chiming in)
We have 2 motorcycles at the moment. One is an auto (a 1980 honda-matic) and the other is a standard 6 speed.
Depending on if I want to go fast, I go manual (also more fuel efficient) and if i want relaxing, as I equate it, riding a barstool on wheels) I’ll take the 2 speed hondamatic.
February 22nd, 2012 at 3:05 pm
That’s why the ideal transmission (for my preferences, and for many practical considerations) is one that shifts for you but that you can manually override.
(Whether it’s a computer-controlled “manual”, a computer-controlled DSG, or an automatic with overrides, doesn’t matter, really.
I don’t give a damn about how the thing works internally. But I also don’t want to have to use two feet, or have to always manually tell it what gear to be in, or do tricky things to not roll back a bit when on a hill…
Anyone saying those are all awesome is invited to explain why they haven’t modified their vehicle so they can manually control timing advance or choke.)
February 22nd, 2012 at 3:38 pm
I, too, own a vehicle with a 6 speed DSG. I like the fact that yes, I can ‘shift’ in 32ms when I want, or let the car do it for me. Sports Mode makes acceleration over 80mph even more fun, but you never really leave 5th gear.
My GTI won’t beat most cars off the block, but I have to admit that when most other cars are in 3rd and starting to wind down on torque, the GTI just kinda goes “Whatever” and keeps on keepin’ on.
February 22nd, 2012 at 4:00 pm
I’m pretty sure that the top fuel and funny cars don’t have a transmission at all – they are direct drive with a clutch that uses an air timer to progressively engage. They do, however, have a reverser bolted to the clutch can.
Taking a quick look at the NHRA Stock Eliminator recordbook, it appears that manual-transmission cars are about a tenth of a second quicker in the 1320 than the automatic transmission cars for the same class (A Stock vs. A Stock Automatic.)
February 22nd, 2012 at 6:26 pm
Thanks Rolls…what they are doing now in Top Fuel/Funny is mind boggling. I knew they weren’t automaticss in the traditional sense, and I don’t think the drivers actually shift, though they do something to “apply the clutch”…I am not sure if that is active or passive, however.
What they do have is enormous balls, which is ironic because so many woman have been in top fuel recently…and they have all been VERY easy on the eyes. Danica is NOT the prettiest woman in professional racing.
February 22nd, 2012 at 6:36 pm
I guess I’ve never had a “performance” automatic, just cheap production ones, but an automatic that is intended to go out in traffic has to be all things to all people, and can’t possibly be the best for everything, or even anything. I can see tweaking the snot out of one for a 1/4 run, but if you want to “tweak on the go”, you have to do it yourself. Economy? Smooth shifts? Brutal acceleration? Squealing tires or not? You just need to learn how. There’s still a place for skill. Quit being such a wuss.
February 22nd, 2012 at 8:37 pm
It was my (possibly ignorant) understanding that the faster acceleration of an automatic came at the expense of more power lost through the drivetrain (assuming two cars varying only in transmission type).
February 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 pm
I’m no car expert by any means, but i have to agree with Robb. The wife and I just got a 2011 GTI with the DSG auto Tiptronic. There’s a slight “where is it” moment from a rest, but it doesn’t last long, and keep you glued to the head rest. Which is unfortunate when you want to look back at whatever you just dusted.
February 22nd, 2012 at 11:19 pm
For the run-of-the-mill driver the automatic is better.BUT,for the expert, the standard transmission CAN be better.
February 23rd, 2012 at 10:33 am
That is the moment in which you lose.
In racing, that “moment” is like a gun-jam in a self-defense situation.
It may not matter much in a 350hp grocery getter, but when you get into the 600hp range, it really is noticable.
That moment translates to a couple of car lenths at the big end of the track. Its going to be worse on a road coarse where you factor in entering and exiting turns.
February 24th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
LOL you guys kill me. I’m that commenter. Tell you what, let me blow your minds; I manually shift my automatic; most racers do, using manual valvebodies to control fluid flow, along with a ratchet-type shifter. It’s really not at all about skill, it’s about physics. A torque converter is not just a fluid coupling, it is a torque multiplication device. My lightweight TH-350 will spin with only marginally more power input than a manual analog, and it recovers from shifts better due to the torque multiplication at stall speed (which I hit after each shift). In fact, the cars that run the quickest and fastest with the least relative power (Top Stock) use the converters almost like a CVT. If you’re not making enough power to need a Lenco, then you’re probably better off with an automatic. In fact, you might even be best off with… wait for it… a POWERGLIDE!
Obviously there are a ton of crossover points, mass vs mechanical advantage, class racing where rules limit what can be modified, etc., and I certainly was trying to be more provocative than informative with that post, but the level of misunderstanding of how these devices function is rather staggering.