There is no timer in a gunfight and in a gun fight, odds are, Todd Jarrett is not shooting at you
I’ve taken a grand total of two handgun training classes. One was a class focused on competition led by Todd Jarrett, who is an awesome guy. The other was a real world, self defense handgun class led by Tom Givens, also pretty damn awesome. Todd said his class was not geared toward tactical guys but he thought they could learn a lot. Tom, a former competitive shooter, said his class was not competition oriented but you could learn alot. Both classes were fun and rewarding and I’d recommend both. And both were right. The main differences, to me, seemed to be:
Competition class focuses on speed of draw, whereas self-defense class focuses on drawing in way so as not to get your gun taken from you.
Competition class focuses on shooting accurately and quickly to get a good score. Self-defense focused on not getting your ass killed and getting the Hell away.
Otherwise, the fundamentals of both seemed similar enough to me.
With that, this post is full of win.
If you get in a gun fight, you are right, there is no timer. But if Todd Jarrett is the one doing the shooting at you, there will be a number of bodies on the ground roughly equal to the number of spent shell casings on the ground. Because he can fucking shoot. He doesn’t need a timer to put a lot of rounds on target really fucking fast.
September 12th, 2013 at 9:13 pm
As Dave Spaulding says, “if you are keeping score, you ain’t training”
September 12th, 2013 at 9:33 pm
From what I have seen on video, the number of bodies on the ground will be roughly equivalent to the number of spent shell cases that remain in the air falling towards the floor . . .
September 12th, 2013 at 9:56 pm
I took a defense class from a competition instructor. He criticized my draw from a forward cant holster because, his words, “that’s an instant DQ.”
Never again.
September 12th, 2013 at 10:25 pm
I recall an old (Guns&Ammo Magazine? Ayoob?) story about a highly successful competition shooter who was involved against his will in an armed robbery at a convenience store.
The competitive shooter won, and was congratulated by the responding police officers on his tight three shot group in the center of the perpetrator’s chest.
Fast is good. Accurate is good. Both together are hard to beat.
September 12th, 2013 at 11:23 pm
“I’ve taken a grand total of two handgun training classes.”
Seriously?
You should take a lot more classes and do a lot more training. I think anyone who wants to be able to defend themselves with a gun should regularly train.
Timer, no timer, quick draw, defensive draw, static, dynamic, tacticool operator, civilian, whatever–just train.
Train, then train some more. In Los Angeles, we must have a dozen different companies and individual trainers that with classes every weekend. Half day, full day, two day, 200 rounds or 900 rounds, whatever you want. The ranges are always busy with people of all skill levels.
Train. Lots.
If you have to draw or use a gun in a defensive situation, I can’t think of any substitute for lots of training.
September 13th, 2013 at 6:53 am
You can train without paying. The classes are nice, but the money spent on an instructor can – for many people – be better spent on ammo and real shooting.
I have done both military and commercial training and thought every bit of it was useful and good. But these are occasional exploits. The real work is me and some steel targets on a regular basis. I don’t get better in a class – I get better going home and integrating some of the ideas from a class into my personal practice.
Not arguing with anyone; just pointing out my opinion that taking lots of classes (alone) won’t make you good and that the core element of any training regimen starts and ends with a single person practicing their craft. This applies to dancing, painting and shooting things. Find a style that works for you and get good at it.
September 13th, 2013 at 8:55 am
I hate to do it, but I must agree with SE… only two classes and you expect to defend yourself against ninjas on a regular basis?
😉
September 13th, 2013 at 9:24 am
Dancing, painting, and shooting things. Choose any two. And do not ask how I know this.
[limps back to easel, clutching ND flesh wound]
September 13th, 2013 at 9:56 am
The line I remember from Robert A Heinlein is “get the first shot off fast , that rattles the guy enough to make the second shot accurate.”
September 13th, 2013 at 11:36 am
“You can train without paying. The classes are nice, but the money spent on an instructor can – for many people – be better spent on ammo and real shooting.”
Training != Practice. Both do different things.
I know people who’ve been to a lot of gun school but still can’t shoot, because they never practice what they learned. I know people who’ve been burning ammo all their lives but can’t hit the side of a barn because nobody’s taught them how to shoot.
September 13th, 2013 at 4:21 pm
I think Kyle Lamb wrote about shooting a pistol,
One Bad guy = One magazine.
I think he shot at least one more bad guy than me so I’ll take his word for it.
September 13th, 2013 at 5:33 pm
“Training != Practice”
I don’t disagree, but if Unc has only taken two classes in his life, what is he going to practice? Unc may be a phenomenal marksman, but is two classes enough to be comfortable enough to defend one’s life?
To your second point, I don’t use people who can’t shoot (regardless of training or practice) as a reference or a standard. I look to train with and practice with people who are good, preferably better than me.
I take classes to train, and I practice during my training classes, and then I practice at home and on the range outside of class.
And for me, there is pistol training, shotgun training, and rifle training–they each require different skills and techniques, so for me to stay proficient on all three platforms it’s a year round commitment.
In my training classes, my instructor is watching my stance, my draw, my form, my trigger pull, calling my shots, pointing out my mistakes, testing me, timing me, and generally giving me feedback. That training informs my practice–tells me what I’m doing well, and what I need to work on when I practice. Without that type of training, I’m not sure what people practice.
(of course this isn’t about plinking or fun days at the range)
September 13th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
Well. I should get some training then.
September 13th, 2013 at 8:13 pm
(You realize, “SE”, that the part in italics and quotation marks was a quote from a previous commenter, to whom your larger point appeared to be addressed.
Out of curiosity, of the many fine trainers in the greater LA area, who have you trained with?)
September 13th, 2013 at 8:34 pm
Fuck you,saysuncle! Oh, I see you’re from Tennessee. Sorry. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyu3OIn5A00
What the hell was I a think’in anyway? Gettin’ daft in my old age.
September 13th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
I rememebered “Big Iron” as a simplistic and nonsensical ballad of the ’60’s, though that’s not how I how I like it now. It’s nothing of the sort, now. Least not to me now.
September 13th, 2013 at 9:13 pm
Well, good, I guess. I just go shoot things and practice what I’ve learned.
September 14th, 2013 at 12:54 am
Hi Tam,
I don’t know if you are being sarcastic, but I’ve taken classes with several–I don’t remember many of them since I only did one class. But I have taken a few classes with Falcon Operations Group (http://falconops.net/)–great instruction, but they are too LEO / military / operator oriented for me.
I now train with Phoenix Tactical Solutions (http://phoenixtacticalsolutions.com/). Excellent instructors focused on civilian defensive training. With classes most Saturdays just north of LA, it’s easy to do a half day or full day class or skill-builder at least once a month.
September 14th, 2013 at 6:45 am
@Tam: Absolutely. Training and Practice are not the same thing. I advocated a mix. Like I said, I have always felt the training I took was was useful, especially after I put it into practice afterward.
There is a strong commercial push these days for training, and your point about people taking classes but not putting into practice is what I was addressing. Hence the thought that for many, a little more range time alone is better than another class.
I ended my post with what I figured was a fairly agreeable comment that training alone is not enough – that you need to also practice to get good at it. Balance.
September 14th, 2013 at 8:24 am
“odds are, Todd Jarrett is not shooting at you”
– and if he is, you are so fucked.
September 15th, 2013 at 12:10 am
One of the advantages of formalized training that isn’t obvious at first glance is that the piece of paper you get at the end of the class is one more hurdle the prosecution has to cross over in the (God forbid) event of a defensive gun use.
Have a bunch of people take the stand and say how you were (hopefully) an outstanding student in their class and fully understood that lethal force should be used in the gravest extreme would have, I think, a powerful effect on a jury.
If it even got to that.
September 15th, 2013 at 11:21 am
There most certainly is a timer in a gunfight. Several, actually. You just don’t know what they’re set to when they start.
The first is the time between when the gunfight starts, and when you or someone you love gets shot. Then begins timer number 2, which you’d better get to a hospital before it hits zero.
Fast is good, accurate is better, but sometimes the good guy can’t be either enough to save a life. Don’t hate on the people trying to be faster, any more than you would those trying to be more accurate.
September 15th, 2013 at 12:39 pm
Tam said “I know people who’ve been to a lot of gun school but still can’t shoot, because they never practice what they learned” That would be me. I’m working on it now – with a CED6000 and the handgundrills.pdf
But, before that, Unc said “odds are, Todd Jarrett is not shooting at you”. If two guys half as fast as Todd Jarret are shooting at you, is that better, the same or worse than facing TJ?
Keith
September 16th, 2013 at 2:47 am
What IPSC competition (and practicing for it) gives me, is the muscle memory to cope with the “shooting” part of a gun fight. I know that I’ll be stressed, and jittery, and that I’ll lose fine motor control, but I won’t have to think about what I am doing. Just like I don’t need to think about the mechanics of shaving.
The “deciding” part – as in “do I shoot or not”, “who do I shoot”, and “when do I shoot” – will be the tough part. I don’t need my limited CPU cycles all used up with trying to work the gun. That’s one of the reasons why all my competition pistols are from the same platform.
Oh, and to be clear, I have attended precisely ZERO self-defense classes. The whole concept of self-defense with a firearm is anathema to the PTB. I wouldn’t be surprised if that sort of class is actively prohibited here.
September 16th, 2013 at 11:05 am
If two guys half as fast as Todd Jarret are shooting at you, is that better, the same or worse than facing TJ?
Better than facing Todd Jarret, almost certainly.
Because Mr. Jarret doesn’t NEED a whole lot of bullets to get the job done, although he’s perfectly happy to use them. So, the time on his splits is probably not relevant, nor the “splits” of two guys each shooting half as fast. Dude is fast AND accurate — odds are he’s both faster AND more accurate than your two hypothetical shooters.
Mr. Jarret would only need to worry about himself — two guys working together have to devote some of their attention to the other guy, to avoid interfering with each other (like shooting their buddy in the back as he crosses laterally in front of them). Even if he IS moving laterally, if Todd Jarret is shooting at you, you’re probably already falling before he finishes the first step.
Now, if Jerry Miculek is shooting at you, there’s probably a handful of spent .357 cases and an empty speedloader falling before he finishes the first lateral step. . . {grin}
September 18th, 2013 at 10:51 pm
I believe it was Jim Cirillo who said, “a pistol match may not be a gunfight, but a gunfight sure as hell is a pistol match.” I go to classes when I can, and use competition to practice my mechanics (not tactics).