Bleg: generators
Need one for work stuff and emergency use. Prefer one that is powered by diesel. What say you?
Remember, I do this to entertain me, not you.
Uncle Pays the Bills
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September 22nd, 2014 at 3:29 pm
I suggest a Turbine powered car.
September 22nd, 2014 at 3:38 pm
do you need 220/3 phase?
September 22nd, 2014 at 3:43 pm
Be nice. Not sure I need it though
September 22nd, 2014 at 3:44 pm
If it’s stationary, I’d go with NO or LP. That way you don’t have to worry about fuel.
September 22nd, 2014 at 3:47 pm
How big…How many watts? 120 or 220?
Portable? One man lift? Or bolted to a work truck?
September 22nd, 2014 at 4:41 pm
I wanted a diesel one, too, but I couldn’t find any that were small enough–all seemed to be big generators with much more output than I need. (I use it for power during amateur radio Field Days, and during simulated emergencies where I need to provide communications for 24-72 hours.) Also, the prices were significantly more than I could afford. So, I ended up just buying a Honda EU2000i and it’s been great. Reliable, easy to start, easy to fill, quiet, and clean power output without any RFI. Just make sure you run it empty when you’re done, otherwise modern gasoline will crud it up.
September 22nd, 2014 at 4:47 pm
Diesels tend to be big and expensive.
September 22nd, 2014 at 4:50 pm
F-350 with a PTO running a generator?
(I kid. Mostly.)
More seriously, everyone above is correct – how much power do you need? That informs decisions, a lot.
(Also, if you’re not sure if you need three phase power, you don’t. Guarantee you your house doesn’t have it from the power company already, unless a previous owner had … very unusual requirements.)
September 22nd, 2014 at 5:08 pm
>work stuff and emergency
This means it needs to be portable, as I think Unc moves around to job sites.
>emergency
Unc really needs to expand this out a little bit. For me, “emergency” means running a fridge for an hour and a half everyday while I also plug in my cellphones, flashlights, and ham radio. For other people it means throwing the transfer switch, plugging in the generator and pretty much carrying on with life, enjoying the A/C, plasma TV, hot tub, and keeping the electric hot water heater going.
Are you going to need to keep the pellet stove running in the winter so the pipes don’t freeze? Could you manage it so both the refrigerator and the freezer don’t try to start-up at the exact same time? Would you feel comfortable installing a “hard start” kit on your heatpump? How big a horsepower electric motor do you need to start? Are you addicted to your CPAP machine? Do you know enough about watts and amps to make up a power budget?
For construction, my experience is with installing sprinkler system piping, and for that we needed to be able to run a few lights, run a miter saw or other small tool, charge cordless tool batteries, and run the radio built into the charger. While this could be done with 110v., roomie had a 220v.
When the tropical storm came through, a few suicide cords (DON’T search-fu that) and a hefty chain and padlock meant we had lights and the fridge, but no A/C, only warm water from the tap and we had to line-dry clothing. The propane camp cooker came out of storage for cooking and we couldn’t use the oven for a few days.
September 22nd, 2014 at 5:22 pm
I like to leave the blegs open ended as it generates more comments about things I may not have thought of.
Yes, portable for the job sites. And, also, emergency may mean powering one floor of the house for a few hours each day with the install of a transfer switch.
I want diesel because my truck has a 100 gallon transfer tank and, of course, the 35 gallons in the truck itself.
September 22nd, 2014 at 5:27 pm
Northstar makes a little 25 cu in. diesel generate rated for 6120 continuous watts. About $2k if you shop around. A buddy uses one to run various tools on job sites and he seems to like it.
September 22nd, 2014 at 5:29 pm
I’m looking at LP myself. Easy to fill/refill propane tanks, and if you have a whole-house tank, you can get a fill tube installed on that to refill your own small tanks.
And instead of searching suicide cords, you can search widowmaker electrical cords instead. Same thing, better results.
September 22nd, 2014 at 5:30 pm
What my brother did was get a used PTO driven generator and made a mount so that it would attach to the 3-point hitch any one of three different tractors on the farm. I think his is 30 KW but there are smaller ones.
September 22nd, 2014 at 6:15 pm
RE: diesel. Good choice for something that’s portable (or even semi-portable). Stationary, go propane with large tank(s).
The Indians and Chinese have some small (<1.5 liter) one and two cylinder low rpm diesels that operate at 1800 RPM. Kubota has a couple 1 – 1.5 liter 3 cylinder diesels, all watercooled AFAIK and "standard RPM," meaning they operate best around 2500-3000 RPM. Those engines will last many years, not sure a store bought diesel generator would. You'd be surprised how much a store bought diesel genny costs, and figure it'll be about 10KW or higher, and heavy enough that "portable" will exist only in the brochure.
With engine choices like that, it might be worthwhile to build your own, and take it a step farther: mount everything on a truck bed-size pallet or small trailer, and add an air compressor, pump, etc. to accommodate whatever task presents itself. Did that years ago with a two cylinder gasoline Kohler on a trailer towed behind the farm tractor, and it turned out pretty good. Added a couple hand crank-assisted homemade hose reels to hold electrical cord and air hose, about 200 ft of each, which turned out to be quite handy.
Pro tip: Use long 10-3 SO cord (spendy but tough and good, and 8-3 is better but more spendy) for primary power distribution and one or two Tripp Lite 20 amp, 12 outlet power strips for final power distribution.
And consider mufflers, even adapting an automotive muffler. Except for the small Honda gas units aimed at the RV market, gens are pretty noisy and listening to one for 8 hours will drive both you and the neighbors nuts.
September 22nd, 2014 at 6:17 pm
This is the cheapest transfer switch I’ve seen, coming in at $150
You probably have 220v. service at your house, you probably don’t have three phase unless you run a sawmill or machine shop. You probably can’t only power one level of your house unless it’s wired special.
The transfer switch is pretty idiot proof. your kids could do it. Throwing the switch completely cuts off outside power.
Now the smarts come in and I would need to shut off the electric clothes dryer, electric hot water heater, stove, a/c, and furnace. Pretty much every breaker that’s bonded together. I just don’t have the watts to run anything 220, but having 220v. on the generator means I don’t have to build a double-jesus suicide-cord (don’t search-fu that one either) to bond both 110 phases together (or live with only half of the 110 breakers powered up at a time)
4500 watts means I can run one (1) 220v. circuit at a time, as long as the amps were 20 or less (i.e. a 20 Amp or smaller double breaker). Keep in mind that electric motors, especially ones under load, can draw up to ten times their rated current when they first start up. (I suspect an AC amp-clamp type meter might be able to measure instant starting power, but I have not tried this yet.)
To keep the deep-freezer and the refrigerator from both trying to start at once, unplug one or the other (or both to start with.) Use duct-tape and notes to prevent navel-gazing in front of an open fridge. If the freezer stays closed and is reasonably full you really only need to power it for an hour or so a day to keep the ice-cream frozen. In the winter you can move food outside to keep it from spoiling.
Consider heating, water (if on a well pump), cooking (if you have an electric stove). You can of course run all this on a generator, but you may not want to pay full price when you can pull out the camp stove for cooking, string a clothes line, and use the turkey-fryer to heat bathwater and survive for a week or two.
sorry, I can’t recommend a good small diesel generator. No experience with air-cooled diesels. Northerntool.com does stock several small air cooled diesels for landscaping maintenance equipment.
September 22nd, 2014 at 7:05 pm
What Alien said.
You need to figure how much you need before you know what you want to buy. That means sitting down and calculating the needs of everything you want to run, both in steady state and start up wattage. Anything with an electric motor (fridge, freezer, water pump, etc.) will draw more current at startup. The little UL sticker on your appliances will show current draw in amps and get you started in the right direction. Amps X Volts gives you watts.
September 22nd, 2014 at 7:31 pm
I bought a power inverter that hooks to my car battery to run my fridge, chest freezer, etc… It was fraction of the cost of a generator. I will have to run a vehicle for a bit while if I’m running large appliances, but for rare power outages it’ll do just fine. I have two vehicles it’ll run off of, and extra gas in the garage.
September 22nd, 2014 at 7:38 pm
For “work stuff”, are you talking running a compressor for a few nailers or a big arc welder off this generator?
September 22nd, 2014 at 7:39 pm
Nailers
September 22nd, 2014 at 7:45 pm
For a house, running fuel oil (not my first choice), make sure it’s 220v because it’s easier to wire to the house. ~1700 rpm, because it’s quieter and it’ll last longer. I’d hard wire it into a transfer switch and manually turn off the AC and electric stove, or don’t wire them to the transfer switch. I’d look at 6k watts as a comfortable long term (more than a day) generator size. If you have no budget, look at 15k watts, only the dull roar in the back yard will let know the city is off.
For portable, running a drill or table saw, the Honda 3k is awesome. Small enough to lug around, big enough run anything you want to play with, handy on the RV.
Real men install one off the belt drive under the hood of your Cummins powered pickup of doom… 🙂 You know you can stuff 10k watts in there? I’m going to go dream for a bit…
September 22nd, 2014 at 8:04 pm
While I appreciate the appeal of diesel, were I shopping for a generator, I’d be looking very hard at Honda, and a Tri-Fuel Kit. I know nothing about these, just came across them a while back, and took note. Oh, the tri-fuel thing is available for Yammerhaw too and some others. And they have some diesels listed on their site.
September 22nd, 2014 at 8:52 pm
I want diesel because you can make it burn about anything flammable. Gas nor propane/CNG won’t let you do much else. Diesels are readily available below 7Kw if you want small.
September 22nd, 2014 at 10:11 pm
Honda has some aggressive ads out for generators.
My PCX 150 Honda scooter has been getting me to work and back on my 10 mile, one way, commute for 2 years with no problems, great acceleration (better than the cars next to me), and an average of 95 mpg (Honda claimed 103 mpg, but I tend to throttle hard).
I would go Honda, if it really mattered. Who do you want to hire for your engineers? I would hire those Honda boys from Tokyo. They sharp. Love Honda. Honda promises the moon, but they deliver the stars. Take a ride on a Honda on a glittering, starlit night, and you’ll know what I mean. Pure performance. Glorious. Magnificent. The best.
September 22nd, 2014 at 10:42 pm
We have a few around the farm. All of the bastards are noisy. If you’re going to be running it all day get a quiet one, a honda or something designed for an RV. That constant scream will drive you bonkers.
September 22nd, 2014 at 10:55 pm
Unc, diesel all the way.
Although diesel generator sets are a lot heavier than other fueled units, diesel fuel is a lot less volatile and you can buy the red dye off road diesel fuel much cheaper (albeit a higher sulfur content).
Look into a Ronk model 7205A manual transfer switch. Made in the USA and (usually) well priced. I’ve got one of these and it’s bullet proof; no complaints.
Keep in mind that generator manufacturers play the big kW/kVA games with their ratings. For instance, if a unit is rated 20kW, it usually means a 20kW rating for (2) hours out of 24. Hence, the unit will do about 18kW continuous duty.
Usually, an alternator standby rating is 130 degrees C. (centigrade) temperature rise on the armature. 105 degrees C. is continuous. Steer clear of 150 degrees C. rated units…bad mojo. The lower the continuous duty rating is, the cooler the generator will run (more copper windings).
The rule of thumb is at least 25% of electrical load must be applied to a diesel engine powering a generator to keep the combustion chamber hot enough to prevent “slobbering”. So, if the unit is rated 20kW Standby/18kW Continuous, then a 4.5kW load must be applied continuously on the unit to keep the engine combustion chambers clean.
Also, here’s another tidbit to keep in mind: if considering a self-contained or trailer mounted unit, look for one with an EPA approved/UL Listed double-walled fuel tank to keep the DOT off your arse…and out of your wallet.
If you have the means to lift the unit in and out of your truck, get an enclosed unit less the fuel tank.
Look for “low hour” ex-standby units for the best deals. They’re out there.
September 23rd, 2014 at 2:51 am
OK, specific recommendations:
1. Diesel. Diesel fuel doesn’t varnish up, you can condition the fuel to last a long, long time in a tank. In warmer climates, you might need to add some biocide to prevent algae formation in some tanks.
Downside to diesel: It’s a bit messy. You’ll have to change the engine oil more frequently than for gasoline, LP or NG.
2. Get a genset that runs at 1800 RPM. The 3600 RPM units burn up pretty quickly compared to the 1800 RPM units.
3. Look at used vs. new. In gasoline gensets, a used unit is a crapshoot. If you know what you’re looking at for a diesel genset, you can find some pretty good deals.
I like the MultiQuip line of gensets. They’re typically running an Izusu engine. I have a 25 kVA unit that can do 230/1 phase or 208/440 3 phase at the flip of a switch. The unit has a 30 gallon internal tank and my trailer has a 70 gallon tank between the rails of the trailer. Easy to haul around with any 2″ ball bumper hitch. Used with 1800 hours, it cost me under $10K.
Multiquips are also quiet. They’ve got great sound insulation and vibration isolation. These are the gensets you see at large outdoor events like concerts and such.
4. If you’re going to start motors with your genset, know that you need excess capacity to start motors, and you need more capacity as your motor size goes up. If you want to start a 5HP single phase motor, you’d better reckon on a 10kVA genset.
5. Lastly, if you’re not looking for a very large unit and you’re willing to look around a bit, there are engine-driven welders that have the capability to provide both welding power and generated power. I have a Miller Trailblazer 300D that can give me 300 amps of welding current and 8kVA of power (230v 1ph) at the same time. Nice unit. Cost me $3K on a repo in 2004.
6. Per Crawler above, you can get dyed (off road) diesel, which means your per-gallon cost will be anywhere from about $0.40 to over $0.50/gal cheaper. All the road taxes are waived in the price of red fuel. It is no longer higher sulphur any more – at least not here in the west. The off road fuel comes of the same rack as #2 road diesel, and then they dye it.
7. In winter, you might have to add fuel anti-gel or #1 diesel to your fuel to prevent wax crystals from clogging your fuel filter(s).
September 23rd, 2014 at 9:38 am
Once you figure out the watts, voltage and phase(s) needed then the only thing to figure out is how much you are willing to spend.
Good quality diesel generators will run about $1000 per kW.
September 23rd, 2014 at 9:43 am
I should have added portable after quality.
Once you reach a certain size the price rise slows.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:08 am
The best value in Diesel gensets these days come from welding rigs. Look for used Miller Bobcat welders – they show up online a bit, but other models are nice, too. At least this way you might actually see some use for it outside of a generator. Also they are quite tough, having been designed to bolt to a work truck and bump around construction sites.
You will need to watch out for harmonic distortion and voltage regulation if you want to power sensitive electronics – which is pretty much everything these days. A line conditioner will cost you more money, but save you some in the end. My kid came home from the NICU with a heart and lung monitor (had a nasty habit of stopping either several times a day), just four days before a five-day power outage from a hurricane. We needed that monitor to work, and I burned through three computer UPS systems that I used as conditioners between a Generac and the monitor. Worth every penny, considering the outcome.
But if sensitive electronics are an issue (TV, even refrigerators) then look at Honda and Yamaha genset built just for those purposes – they use an inverter instead of a stator. I now have two, in addition to the Generac. The Generac handles my well pump and other non-sensitive things, and the inverters are good for computers and whatnot. Unfortunately, with the advent of LED lights, “smart” appliances and everything else, I am going to have to save the Generac for construction tools and go whole-house genset designed for electronics (Kohler).
FWIW, I wanted Diesel but went gas. The whole-house will use my 1000 gallon propane yard-bomb that sits mostly idle since I went outside wood boiler a few years ago. The price/performance curve didn’t make sense when you factor in the capability to handle electronics. Diesel starts expensive, but by the time you get to managed harmonics and voltage, it gets expensive enough to purchase a whole-house system, a mobile standby and still have enough left over for dinner out on the town.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:24 am
Check out a company called central maine generators. The handle damn near everything in the gen line. And sometimes they have sales and paid shipping. I especially like the Isuzu 10K diesels ~1 gal/hr full load.
September 23rd, 2014 at 10:47 am
Sorry, the Miller Bobcat and Trailblazer line appear to be LP or Gas. I thought they were also diesel. Maybe they once were, or maybe I saw another brand that was. Still worth a look, maybe.
Also Honda Eu line for inverter-based systems. Short of a whole-house, I wouldn’t get anything but an inverter system for home emergency backup. Clean power means you won’t fry anything by accident.
September 23rd, 2014 at 11:45 am
Not diesel, but would work great for around the house, camping, work, and emergencies.
http://www.calranch.com/home/auto/power-equipment/generators/champion-9375w-dual-fuel-generator
September 23rd, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Here’s a diesel one
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Series-GENSD7-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B003T1RTWO/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411488142&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=10+kw+generator++%26+%22diesel+power%22
Never really heard of them, but there are others on the page
September 23rd, 2014 at 1:10 pm
Check out the Imperial Generator lineup. Hand assembled by Amish, in PA. They blueprint the Mercedes or Westerbeke engines, and have a US made generator head.
They’re liquid-cooled, (radiator), skid-mounted units, and they just WORK.
I don’t have the link, but they’ll come up in a search.
Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
September 23rd, 2014 at 1:26 pm
LOTS of good brain candy in this post!!
I still don’t know enough to know what I don’t know but the above comments are a good start for me to do some serious research on gennys. A subject that has been on the far back burner for too long.
September 23rd, 2014 at 2:12 pm
Does anybody know: is it safe to recharge batteries (a laptop, kindle, cell phone) off of a cheap generator with no filtering/converting of the voltage?
I know electronics like nice smooth voltage, but do the batteries need that to recharge? It would be nice if they could be recharged off a cheap generator and then used for hours and hours.
September 23rd, 2014 at 3:18 pm
@dustydog: depends entirely on the charge controller. Find one made for the RV/camping market and you’ll do fine. Use the one that is meant to plug into your house and it might crap out in a few weeks, or even hours.
The easy answer to your specific question is: don’t do it without protection.
In general, if it’s something that plugs into a wall outlet, you take your chance with most homeowner-grade generators. Get into the pricier Honda units (even non-inverter units) and you’ll probably be OK.
Count your devices, figure out how often you’ll need the generator to power them, then count your pennies. The difference in cost between an inverter-based generator (the safest choice) and a few UPS devices from Office Depot might be significant. In other words, grab a few cheap UPS devices for everyday use and put them between the generator and your laptop. If the UPS dies (as mine did on a home depot generac brand machine), it will save the much more expensive laptop. You’re maybe out $100 but avoided the purchase of a $2000 higher cost generator you only use once every three years. On the upside, the UPS is working every day, all year long.
The more devices you have, the more likely you’ll need a better generator. But don’t spend a lot of bucks when you can buy sacrificial UPS devices. Note that you can buy excellent conditioners that are not UPS devices, but if you do that you might as well get a specialized genset.
September 23rd, 2014 at 4:42 pm
Chiming in again. Used a Honda EU3000 for about 7 days total during the 2004 hurricane festivities (Charlie 5 days, Frances and Jean about 1 day each), worked great, used about 2.8 gal gas per 18 hours. Now also have a pair of EU2000, built my own coupling rig to double output (2X watts, still 115V). Honda now has an eu7000 that’s air cooled, and an EM10000 industrial, also looks air cooled. I’ve got a ES6500 (water cooled) for the well pump. The EU line is inverter, everything else is straight stator output. Honda used to make a very quiet 4200 watt RV unit on a platform, to bolt under the sheet metal on RVs and hook to the RV fuel tank, don’t know if it’s still made. The 2000s come in “master” and “slave” config (think it’s called “Companion”) with one already wired to connect to a standard. If you get a pair, make sure they’re configured to cable together, it’ll save bucks in the long run. Good prices at Wisesales.com and Planopower.com. EU3000s can also be coupled in pairs to double output wattage. Still 115V, tho.
Pro tip: Some models of the Honda EU3000s are electric start, be careful how you charge the battery, best to disconnect the batt if you use an external charger – some chargers will back-feed the inverter with noise and voltage fluctuations and kill it. Replacement inverters are over a grand.
For home, figure what you want to run on it, size the gen for that. Hint: you almost certainly don’t need to run everything you want. Summertime, use fans and window ACs in one or two rooms; I bought a 30″ HD exhaust fan from a dry cleaner that was going out of biz, moves about 8000 CFM on 475 watts, clamped it in a window during the hurricane outages during the day, a 5K BTU window unit at night in one room. Ran the fridge, fans during the day, fridge & AC at night. Pro tip: set your fridge/freezer to coldest without freezing stuff in the fridge (adjust control, give it 24 hours to settle temps), when it’s coldest, unplug and monitor temps. I can let my fridge go 6.5 hours between power ups – 6.5 off, 2.5 on. Amazon has wireless paired fridge/freezer thermometers for about $25. Good investment.
If you want a permanent home setup, go propane, automatic transfer switch and auto start. Infrequent outages only, manual transfer switch, gasoline, gen on wheels. I put my EU3000 in a 24″X48″ Lowe’s garden cart, chained to a BIG screw-in earth anchor. During the hurricanes thieves would leave a junk lawn mower with the engine running, steal the generator. Pro tip: search Amazon for “failed circuit alarm” put it in the gen output where it will wake you up. Just in case.
If your gen is quiet enough the usual suspects may not even know it’s there and pick on the neighbors instead. Opsec and all that.
If you go with gasoline, find a source of non-ethanol gas. FL has the full 10% alky, it’s hell on internal carb parts. Some states have lower alky %, but it will still attack small engine internal carb parts. That’s why you’ll notice it’s usually the lawn maint companies filling cans at the no-ethanol pump.
Need a bigger fuel tank, use an outboard tank same height as gen gas tank. connect outboard tank output to vent on gen gas cap, vacuum will suck gas in. EU1000/EU2000 is easy, everything else you’ll have to do a hack on the cap and install a fitting for the tube. Google “RV+external generator fuel tank” – the RV crowd has solutions.
On “homeowner” or light duty “construction” gens, oil changes come every 25-40 hours, so plan for that. My ES6500 has a spin-on filter, large oil capacity, don’t know if the current crop of big Hondas do as well.
RE: light duty “construction” – chek the lube system. Cheap units (Briggs, Tecumseh, etc. engines) tend to use splash for engine oil lube, best units have oil pumps.
If you can engineer your own solution, look at boat units. You’ll need to add a large radiator (no, bigger than that. No, still bigger.), but most of them are 1.5-3 liter multi-cylinder diesels. Talk to someone who services 40-120 ft boats.
Interestingly, Amazon has diesel gens. Use your google-fu for more info.
September 24th, 2014 at 1:24 am
Don’t forget to look on Craigslist for your diesel gennie.
I was doing a search for a diesel truck, and when I just put “diesel”, mixed in with trucks were a bunch of generators of various sizes.
September 26th, 2014 at 11:40 am
>Does anybody know: is it safe to recharge batteries (a laptop, kindle, cell phone) off of a cheap generator with no filtering/converting of the voltage?
@dustydog: for laptop powerbricks, they’ll actually accept just about anything. I’ve even seen them run off of high voltage DC. “Switch mode power supplies” will even take 400 hz OK, even though 50-60hz is what is listed on the label.
Once you have your laptop charging, you could use the USB ports to charge other devices.
It’s complicated, might need some BIOS setting changes, and varies among models, but many computers will let you charge USB devices from their USB ports even with the computer off. On my old laptop it was only one USB port, on some Desktops it’s all of them.
With the laptop off and charging, get your USB device and cable and go around the laptop, trying each of the ports. If you have success, see if the port still works with the laptop off and not connected to your charger. Desktops will have to remain plugged in of course.
If you don’t have success, you can try to see if there is a setting in the PC’s BIOS.