Poker in Tennessee
In comments here, DrawingDead writes:
There appears to be some dispute as to whether poker generally, and a home poker game specifically, is illegal in Tennessee. It’s certainly a valid question, especially for those of us who love to play, and have no ready access to a legal live game (absent driving or flying several hours for one). Given what I do for a living, I thought I’d put some of my training to use, and post this note here. While I don’t like the law, here’s what the statute on this says:
Certain portions not applicable to analysis have been omitted.
Tennessee Code Annotated § 39-17-501
“As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) Gambling is contrary to the public policy of this state and means risking anything of value for a profit whose return is to any degree contingent on chance, or any games of chance associated with casinos, including, but not limited to, slot machines, roulette wheels and the like.
. . .
(2) “Gambling bet” means anything of value risked in gambling;
(3) “Gambling device or record” means anything designed for use in gambling, intended for use in gambling, or used for gambling;
. . .
(6) “Profit” means anything of value in addition to the gambling bet.”
The statute goes on to note, in the specific comments of the Tennessee Sentencing Commission, more detail to the meaning of the statute’s language. Their interpretation seems pretty clear.
“This section contains the definitions for gambling offenses. The definitions are intentionally broader than those found in prior law. The commission intends to include any scheme by which value is risked upon a chance for greater value as a “gambling” offense. The definition of “gambling” includes lotteries, chain or pyramid clubs, numbers, pinball, poker or any as yet unnamed scheme where value is risked for profit.”
The Tennessee Courts have not often addressed the issue of poker as gambling within the meaning of the statutes on this point. Since 1899, there have only been four reported cases in which gambling on poker (not video poker machines, but actual live games) is considered. The statutes on permissible gambling have changed several times during the last hundred years or so.
The statute is more geared at preventing casinos and card rooms seeking to operate the games for a business. The primary punitive aspects of the law are geared toward operating a gambling enterprise. The law is truly designed to restrict these businesses from operating. The punishment for the players are only somewhat secondary, in my opinion.
In other words, the law really wants to prevent shady backroom casinos operating for a profit which, as you would all suspect, is due to the fact that none of these proceeds would be TAXED. Punishment for the players is just a deterrent trying to keep these folks away from the untaxed card games for fear of a fine and/or jail time.
Saying all of that, I’m not sure that local law enforcement is going to get that worked up about enforcing the law against a group of friends playing a weekly low stakes game. However, under a strict interpretation of the statute, the weekly home game for pennies and nickels would probably be illegal gambling.
So you all know, according to T.C.A. § 39-17-502, “ The offense of gambling is a Class C misdemeanor.
In other words, the “skill” versus “chance” distinction doesn’t mean much in Tennessee. As for my opinion, I believe that poker is largely a skill-based game. Certainly, there is a degree of chance, or pure gambling, involved.
However, I draw the distinction on this simple point. In a game like craps or roulette, the outcome of your bet (and whether you win or lose) is based SOLELY on the roll of the dice or the drop of the ball. In poker, you can win a hand based on your bets, with the worst hand if you are a skillful player. It’s hard to win a Pass Line bet on a bluff.
Thought I’d share it.
April 14th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Poker is always a game of chance because the draw of the cards is random. The only skill involved is risk management by the players.
April 14th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Not risk management, really. More like playing the odds and your opponents based on their willingness to risk.
we could take a toby 🙂
April 14th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
“Gambling is ….. means risking anything of value for a profit whose return is to any degree contingent on chance”.
What is a lottery, then?
April 14th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
A tax on hope?
A tax on people who can’t do math?
A tax people actually willingly stand in line to pay?
That’s what i’ve heard.
April 14th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Ah, but a toby is a beer mug.
Hand Frequency Probability Cumulative Odds
Straight flush 40 0.00154% 0.00154% 64,973 : 1
Four of a kind 624 0.0240% 0.0256% 4,164 : 1
Full house 3,744 0.144% 0.170% 693 : 1
Flush 5,108 0.197% 0.367% 508 : 1
Straight 10,200 0.392% 0.76% 254 : 1
Three of a kind 54,912 2.11% 2.87% 46.3 : 1
Two pair 123,552 4.75% 7.62% 20.0 : 1
One pair 1,098,240 42.3% 49.9% 1.37 : 1
No pair 1,302,540 50.1% 100% 0.995 : 1
Total 2,598,960 100% 100% 0 : 1
Each odds row is an indication of the risk of playing for that hand. Folding when holding no pair is the optimum while playing when holding a straight flush is optimum. No skill is required if the odds are understood. Simply folding at a rate relative to the risk of failure will result in break even.
You can’t know what hand you WILL receive but you can react after you receive the hand dealt. The gamble is in the hand dealt, therefore poker is a game of chance no matter the skill required after the initial deal.
April 14th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
No, you’ll lose your blinds/antes.
Numbers also don’t account for human behavior. Example: i know a certain player who will (in every case) fold when he doesn’t have top pair or better or raise/call when he does (he’s predictable and plays ABC poker by the numbers). I will bet into him every time because most of the time people don’t have hands. If he calls, I’m out. But I’ve usually already stolen 4 previous pots from the guy.
Not against the guy mentioned above. I’ll play any two cards against him. And would only have to look at them if he calls.
There’s obviously an element of chance to the game but, more consistently, good players win more than random people calling down all hands. Reading the table/players is far more important than numbers. Recall of past hands is key. Numbers, while important to understand, are secondary. To wit, this hand
You’re welcome to my game any time and I’ll let you bring your calculator.
April 14th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
and that’s not to discount numbers completely. i play a straight numbers game in tournaments v. unknown players until I can get reads on people.
risk management is not the only skill.
April 15th, 2007 at 12:28 am
Yes. I certainly agree with you. However, the statute was amended (and I left out those portions because they don’t deal with poker specifically) to implement the constitutional amendment allowing for the Tennessee Education Lottery.
Ultimately, the bottom line is not whether poker is a game of skill or chance (as I think it is quite simply both, to varying percentages), but whether poker or any other form of gambling should actually be illegal.
Darts, pool, fishing, golf, etc. tournaments where you pay an entry fee and prizes are awarded from the entry pool certainly seem to be contingent on chance to at least some degree, but law enforcement doesn’t seem to be cracking down on those things.
I liked the commenter’s post in the previous thread about Bristol and NASCAR. The recent FLW fishing tournament in town is also the same kind of thing.
Ultimately, unless you’re running an ongoing, for profit venture (backroom casino, cock fight, etc.), I don’t think law enforcement has any real reason to try to crack down on your games.
Anyway, you all are more than welcome to come check out my blog (thanks for the link), but I rarely update it these days. If you want to find out what’s going on in poker in Knoxville, you can check out my message board at http://www.knoxpoker.com
April 15th, 2007 at 2:18 am
According to that law, nearly any form of investment is illegal gambling because they “to [some] degree contingent upon chance.” Under common law, gambling has traditionally been held to be a moneymaking activity in which chance is a the predominant aspect of the game. This is relevant because contracts based upon gambling are void for illegality in many jurisdictions.
For example, in the famous unilateral contract case, Cobaugh v. Klick-Lewis, Inc., hitting a hole in one involves a great deal of chance, but it was held to be a feat of skill that could be performed to satisfy a contract.
April 15th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Actually, can anyone think of a contract in which one side is performing something which is “contingent in any degree upon chance?” Technically it should now be void for illegality in TN.
How about an adjustable rate mortgate or a car loan?
April 15th, 2007 at 9:24 am
The way the law is written often has nothing to do with how it is enforced. Cops have better things to do than go looking for friendly poker games.
The laws here in Louisiana were written like that, pre-casino, and they’re even tougher now, because the casinos don’t want competition. The standing rule for law enforcement is if the house is taking a cut “profit”, then the game is regulated. If the house isn’t taking a cut, then the game is legal.
So, under that simple rule, four guys sitting around playing poker is perfectly legal, whether they are in their house, or sitting in a bar-room somewhere. However, if you have to “buy-in” to a game, where you pay $100 for $90 worth of chips, then the house is making a profit and the game is illegal.
I can take you to one bar here, where eight guys show up on Wednesday night to play poker, anyone is eligible to sit down, there is no buy-in, and the game is dealers choice. No one cuts the pot, and it is perfectly legal.
I realize that doesn’t help you much in Tennessee, but that is the way we deal with it.
April 15th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Enforcement of a criminal law has nothing to do with whether the conduct is illegal for the purpose of voiding contracts.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
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