Why Reasoned Discoursetm matters
I gave Tom King of Gun Talk a bit of a hard time for banning commenters and deleting comments here noting that we should:
let them say those things. And link to them to show what vile disgusting people they are. Let their vile flummery stand to show what their side is like. They’re losing and desperate. Highlight it, don’t hide it.
Tom responded in comments noting:
I don’t disagree with giving any one their say but I am tired of rereading the same debates over and over. That’s right for the past 10 years I’ve listened to the anti’s and pro’s saying the same thing over and over and not one anti has changed his mind. All we do is give them a forum to air their views.
But I’m not trying to change their minds. No amount of reason, facts, or logic will change their minds. They’ve made up their minds and if you expose them to things that are inconsistent with their worldview, their widdle bwains expwode. And they shut down comments and cry into the night into their little echo chambers. It happened with the Brady Blog, it happened with Robyn Ringler’s blog, and Bryan Miller sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts lalalalala like a whiny kid in comments at his blog. I want their comments out there so that we can refute them. Because, while we’re not changing their minds, someone who is on the fence may come to the good side when exposed to actual reasoned discoursetm in which we logically refute their misleading claims. Or they may convert to our side by virtue of seeing commenters like jadegold wish others’ children injured. Stuff like that doesn’t sit well with most folks.
So, allow the liars, hacks, and pants-shitters to have their say. And we should refute their claims for the benefit of converting those on the fence and those who can be converted. The anti gunner consortium is so intellectually bankrupt that they’re lost causes. Forget them and target Susie Soccer Mom who won’t be too appreciative of foul rhetoric and intellectual dishonesty.
It’s an interesting time. The press has taken dictation from anti-gun groups for so long that most people are misinformed on gun issues. But that’s changing. Let them claim that a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member. Then shoot the misleading claim down for the bullshit it is.
Update: In comments, guav notes:
From what I can tell, Jadegold did not “wish” anyone’s child dead, they merely discussed the possibility that someone’s child could die from their own firearm (by accident or suicide). Changing what he actually said into “Jadegold wishes your kid would die” is doing the exact same thing that I hate when Jade does (change my comment of “most of the 15-18 year old kids killed by guns are gang members” into “Oh, so you think all underage gang members should die?!”).
I read Tom’s post here. And I don’t really read Robyn Ringler’s blog so I take guav’s word for it.
Update 2: Apparently, this jadegold person is still claiming I banned them. That is not the case. I don’t have a link because the person who emailed me that info didn’t provide one. Jadegold lying? Of course, this a person who was dropped from their ISP for their internet trolling, according to a commenter.
Update 3: Billy Beck in comments:
There is absolutely no question about it. Now, I’ve just spent the past hour searching the Google Usenet archives for the post from an administrator from Erols.com who actually publicly apologized to a man named Wayne Mann for not taking his complaint seriously after Jadegold accused him of being a wanted murder fugitive. I wrote the whole story up for that guy and he checked it out and summarily terminated Jadegold’s account within two hours. Everybody in the alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater group saw it. I’m thinking this was early ’98, but I’m not entirely certain about that without being able to dig it up.
I have the facts straight here: this really happened. I was party to it, and bloody proud of it, too. It was completely despicable what that little creep did.
I like to see him/her get in here and try to deny it. That’s when I’ll start lining-up witnesses who were there, and between all of us, we’ll find that Erol’s administrator’s apology post, announcing that the Jadegold account was terminated.
I’m telling you the truth.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:09 am
I’m with Uncle. These people yearn to be free. They are just facing the wrong direction.
I suggested to Robyn that she go take a walk through Oleg Volks image gallery and see if anything in her head made that little screaming sound.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:19 am
I can understand Tom’s position. It can be tiring.
But, the first time we let the PSH-ers slide, they win.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:30 am
From what I can tell, Jadegold did not “wish” anyone’s child dead, they merely discussed the possibility that someone’s child could die from their own firearm (by accident or suicide). Changing what he actually said into “Jadegold wishes your kid would die” is doing the exact same thing that I hate when Jade does (change my comment of “most of the 15-18 year old kids killed by guns are gang members” into “Oh, so you think all underage gang members should die?!”).
I don’t have the quote in front of me so maybe I’m remembering incorrectly—if so please correct me and ignore this comment—but if I am remembering it accurately, this characterization of what Jade actually said is intellectually dishonest.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:39 am
guav, thanks. I read it on King’s blog and didn’t research further than that.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Oh, sorry, I was replying to the entry as I read it in my RSS reader, so I didn’t see the link to the comment in question. Looking at it, it’s clear that Jadegold—as much as I severely dislike him—did not wish that anyone’s child would die:
He was raising a hypothetical situation, and though it was a poor choice of situations, there is no reason to believe that he wishes Mike’s kid shoots someone or himself, nor did he say that he did.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Yeah, even Jadegold is not that much of an asshole 🙂
September 5th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Yes, Jade continually accuses you of that. He has a victim complex.
September 5th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Yeah, I guess I jumped to conclusions about that comment as well. Either way, though, the majority of Jade’s comments to either Robyn’s or Tom’s weblogs consisted of nothing more than the standard emotional ploys and arguments that the antis are so fond of. And those stances, due to their emotional nature, invariably boil down to nothing more than shouting matches… neither side can disprove or convince the other, simply because there is nothing to disprove or convince. I can certainly understand why Tom would not want that on his weblog. However, a lot of his rationale for why Jade was banned seem to revolve around Jade’s use of a particular source for his few rational arguments, and that is something I cannot really agree with…
*shrug* Either way, it is said and done, and I do not think any of us are going to change Tom’s mind.
September 5th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
“Jadegold lying? Of course, this a person who was dropped from their ISP for their internet trolling, according to a commenter.”
There is absolutely no question about it. Now, I’ve just spent the past hour searching the Google Usenet archives for the post from an administrator from Erols.com who actually publicly apologized to a man named Wayne Mann for not taking his complaint seriously after Jadegold accused him of being a wanted murder fugitive. I wrote the whole story up for that guy and he checked it out and summarily terminated Jadegold’s account within two hours. Everybody in the alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater group saw it. I’m thinking this was early ’98, but I’m not entirely certain about that without being able to dig it up.
I have the facts straight here: this really happened. I was party to it, and bloody proud of it, too. It was completely despicable what that little creep did.
I like to see him/her get in here and try to deny it. That’s when I’ll start lining-up witnesses who were there, and between all of us, we’ll find that Erol’s administrator’s apology post, announcing that the Jadegold account was terminated.
I’m telling you the truth.
September 5th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
“…not one anti has changed his mind…”
I respectfully disagree.
We have made huge strides. At the federal level: the bogus ‘collective rights’ side of ‘constitutional scholarship’ (such as it is) has been pretty thoroughly disemboweled. When Heller/Parker is decided, we shall succeed in disposing of the corpse. Both the congress and the attorney generals office have explicitly acknowledged the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
‘Shall issue’ is now the rule, not the exception, so the States have finally recognized what the Bill of Rights and (in most cases) their own State constitutions embrace.
These strides would not have been possible without lots of politicos, and the fence sitters that elect them, finally waking up and taking the side of individual rights.
What’s left: Abolish the ATF. Then move on to abolishing the need for carry licenses at all. Then get crime under control by keeping dirtbags in jail, then the final coup-de-grace: rolling back NFA.
If the anti’s seem particularly loud and shrill of late, it’s because, in full-on PSH mode, they have soiled themselves at the thought of our progress. And because of the stench now associated with them, ever larger numbers of liberal politicians are keeping their distance, and lying low. Even the Hildebeast is trying to pass herself off as a shooter. (sure, not even her own people believe that one, but the fact that she thinks the deception is necessary speaks volumes!)
Now is the time to push harder than ever. Our opponent is on the ropes, and our gloves are spiked.
September 5th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
anon: very well put.
September 5th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
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September 5th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
This thread may be the one about JadeGold’s banning from Erol. It is appropriately titled “Public Thanks to Billy Beck”.
There is also another one where JadeGold posts (a now broken) link about the Wayne guy.
Ah, Usenet Trolls, those take me back to when I regularly used Usenet.
September 5th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Thank you, Alcibiades. That’s what I was trying to find.
This is bomb-proof boilerplate fact.
September 5th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Wow. Assuming this is the same JadeGold (I see no reason to assume otherwise.), to call that individual scum would be an insult to all of the pond-top life out there. I have tried to read his weblog in the past, and found the content both atrociously hateful, and sufficiently separated from the facts of reality that I could swear something was loose upstairs. This skeleton from the closet of his past only serves to indicate just how depraved he really is… abasing himself far enough to claim that a completely innocent man is a wanted murderer, when the reality is that this is obviously not the case.
“Sick” does not even begin to cover it, and now I am completely convinced what Tom did was correct. Retroactively, granted, but still.
Good grief… even the worst idiot I encountered on the newsgroups I used to frequent was not that atrocious…
September 5th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Me too. I used to count myself amongst the ‘antis’ and it was truly based on emotions. A fear reaction, for sure. When I was 16, late one night I found myself on the wrong end of a gun being weilded by an old perv that wanted to have his way with my young, nubile body. It ended well with him in handcuffs and myself untouched, though completely traumatized. Ever since, I have had a total fear of guns, and sided with those that would severely restrict access.
However, in recent years, I have listened more closely to the ‘other side’ and have pretty much made a complete turn-around in my thinking. Keyword there … thinking, rather than gut reaction.
Now, due to circumstances that make it a prudent choice, I find myself seriously considering the purchase of a defensive weapon for myself … and I am wide open to advice and suggestions.
How about that … not only could you claim that you convinced an ‘anti’ over to the ‘pro’ side, you might even help place a gun in her hands.
September 5th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
“anon: very well put.”
Why thank you Sir!
I would have one clarification to make: The whole point of my comments (to Tom) was to point out that it’s the fence sitters that we’re preaching to. Everyone realizes that preaching to the converted is mental masturbation (excuse my french). The benefit is that a fence sitter who stumbles across this blog, or others like it, or the comments we put on other blogs will see the underlying reasoning. It’s working. That’s WHY we’ve made the strides we have. We answer the PSH with logic and reason, and Joe Q Public IS smart enough to see that – we just help open their eyes. Sure, The Grey Ladies of the world don’t want to listen, but that’s why old-media is circling the drain.
My personal approach to dealing with fence sitters is simple and surprisingly effective:
Q1) Why do we need gun control?
A1) [invariably] To keep guns away from criminals.
Q2) If you have a criminal you wouldn’t trust with a gun, why are they on the streets to begin with.
A2) um… [imagine cobweb covered brain cogs starting to turn]
Q3) Exactly! If you wouldn’t trust them with a gun, how can you call them ‘reformed’ then let ’em out of the clink?
Result: Another fence sitter starts to realize that it isn’t the guns that are the problem.
September 5th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
“…when the reality is that this is obviously not the case.”
The murder suspect was a man in his twenties from somewhere in Maryland. The person who Jadegold accused was a man in his seventies living in southern California, and — this is the crucial point — Jadegold knew the difference, and did that anyway.
Does everyone understand?
September 5th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Apparently Jade thinks Kevin Baker (smallestminority) and Uncle are the same person.
September 5th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Yep, that would be the post…
Jadegold is as rotten an SoB as ever that trolled ACECWW and I have no doubt that he projects his vileness when he raises a hypothetical situation. I saw that go down when it happened and was glad to see him leave.
September 5th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I’ve invited JadeGold to tis year’s Gunblogger’s Rendezvous. Comment #43 here.
I wonder how long THAT comment will remain up!
September 5th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Er, “tis” = “this”.
(Proofread, proofread, proofread!)
September 5th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
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September 6th, 2007 at 9:03 am
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